Starrett"s 1st square.... 1879 - Page 5
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 103
  1. #81
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    567
    Likes (Received)
    82

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiqueMac View Post
    Rivett wrote, "....I think only about 6 are known to survive....... anybody got one?"

    Yep! Here is mine:









    And here you can read the #215024 patent for it:
    IMPROVEMENT IN TRY-SQUARES - Google Patent Search

    If you actually read the patent search heading you'll note the really bad spelling of Laroy S Starrett? (LAEOY S. STAEEETT) - making it tough to find by a normal search!!

    Here is the drawing:




    Leg17, Check the nut to see it is nickel over brass or steel. The earliest were nickel/brass and rule was a square groove versus a "U" groove.

    So, are we going to have to start a type study?

    And, somewhere I read a question about the originality and purpose of the holes near the end of the rule. Here is what the patent paper says:

    "One or more holes, p, near the end of the bar may be countersunk to admit of the point of a lead-pencil being introduced through either, and used instead of the scratch-pin for making gage-marks."


    Please check the Centering Head for Patent Dates.

    Oddly enough, I don't belive Starrett added the Patent to the Centering Head until the Steel Low Acorn Nut was issued.

    Here is a pic of my earliest Arrowhead Center Head:



    Both Clamping Nuts and Scribe Knob are nickelled brass.

  2. Likes Lester Bowman, sandiapaul liked this post
  3. #82
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    99
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    71

    Default

    Another early Starrett square recently sold on ebay for $991.


    Early Vintage L.S. Starrett "No.9" inch Square Machinist Tool "PAT AP'L FOR" | eBay

    It looks like AntiqueMac's square in the post above. Another PM member asked the seller if there was any markings on the rule. The answer was there are no markings at all, no patent date, graduations or numbers. This seems really odd. Maybe the marking are just hard to see because of the condition of the rule.

    s-l1600-1-.jpg
    s-l1600.jpg
    s-l1600-4-.jpg
    s-l1600-5-.jpg
    s-l1600-7-.jpg

  4. Likes honrick, c5h5nino, SalemRule liked this post
  5. #83
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    111
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    43
    Likes (Received)
    30

    Default

    I can attest there are no markings on the rule.

  6. Likes SalemRule liked this post
  7. #84
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Pawtucket, Rhode Island
    Posts
    47
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    29
    Likes (Received)
    50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by c5h5nino View Post
    I can attest there are no markings on the rule.
    My theory has always been that Starrett had a batch of raised letter squares made in the Richardson shop, but that he could not complete these squares because he lacked the capability of graduating the blades. Your blade is not graduated and was probably made by Starrett at the same time he made your square. Other raised letter squares were put aside by Starrett until he could find a source for graduated blades. Only when he contracted with Stanley was he provided with graduated blades that could be added retroactively to the raised letter squares he already had on hand. This would explain why the blades in several of the existing PAT. AP’D FOR raised letter squares are marked “Starrett’s Pat. May 6, 1879.”

  8. Likes c5h5nino, SalemRule liked this post
  9. #85
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    567
    Likes (Received)
    82

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by apolune View Post
    Another early Starrett square recently sold on ebay for $991.


    Early Vintage L.S. Starrett "No.9" inch Square Machinist Tool "PAT AP'L FOR" | eBay

    It looks like AntiqueMac's square in the post above. Another PM member asked the seller if there was any markings on the rule. The answer was there are no markings at all, no patent date, graduations or numbers. This seems really odd. Maybe the marking are just hard to see because of the condition of the rule.

    s-l1600-1-.jpg
    s-l1600.jpg
    s-l1600-4-.jpg
    s-l1600-5-.jpg
    s-l1600-7-.jpg
    Yeah, I bid but it far exceeded me.

    Examples are rare, and this one is complete, but well-used for sure.

    Graduating the Rules was a big problem for Starrett at this early time, and the lines were always faint.

    The stamped characters unusually are easily visible (see my example of the same rule - different body).



    J. R. Brown, Darling, or Schwartz had all mastered the art of scribing clear graduations on steel, but they either were unwilling to supply proper rules to Starrett, or Starrett was unwilling to buy them.

    As an aside, the eBay example started at $9.99, and the Seller obviously knew very little. I give them credit for listing it at all; some non-collectors might consider it too ugly to sell - and a waste of their time.

    But as it happens, they took home nearly a grand ! They must have been surprised.

    I'd like that to happen to me on eBay once in a while.

  10. Likes 3512B, c5h5nino liked this post
  11. #86
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    111
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    43
    Likes (Received)
    30

    Default

    I messaged the seller about how he got the square. He said he purchased it from an elderly couple's estate sale for a couple of dollars. The couple and the buyer knew nothing about the square. The buyer purchased it because he thought the cast lettering was unique...I need to move to the east coast, specifically Massachusetts!

  12. Likes SalemRule liked this post
  13. #87
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    111
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    43
    Likes (Received)
    30

    Default

    It looks like you are correct SalemRule!

    I brought the square to work and inspected it with the Micro-Vu video scope. The square does have stamped numbers, but I did not see any "STARRETT'S.PAT.MAY.6.1879" or any engraved divisions. These of course could be worn away at this point.

    img_7103.jpg

    img_7104.jpg

    img_7105.jpg

    img_7106.jpg

  14. Likes SalemRule, Lester Bowman liked this post
  15. #88
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    567
    Likes (Received)
    82

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by c5h5nino View Post
    It looks like you are correct SalemRule!

    I brought the square to work and inspected it with the Micro-Vu video scope. The square does have stamped numbers, but I did not see any "STARRETT'S.PAT.MAY.6.1879" or any engraved divisions. These of course could be worn away at this point.

    img_7103.jpg

    img_7104.jpg

    img_7105.jpg

    img_7106.jpg
    Congrats on winning a very rare and desirable Starrett item !

    I'd likely wash it, and scrub a bit with a wooden stick to remove the paint, mebe some wax, and let it be from there.

    Does the scribe come out ? It has got to be the Nickelled Brass Knob !

    Many Combination Try Squares, even those with the Pinhole Rule, do not have the early Nickelled Brass Knob with the Reeded Knurl at the base rather than on the equator.

    Also, later Pinhole Rules seem to have much clearer and deeper Graduations.

    Another quirk is these early Rules, and the Slots cut into the Heads, vary in Thickness/Width quite a bit. They are not usually interchangeable from Square to Square. Though they are all much thinner than the variations that were sold just a year or two later, that lack the Pinholes.

  16. Likes honrick liked this post
  17. #89
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    567
    Likes (Received)
    82

    Default

    "I brought the square to work and inspected it with the Micro-Vu video scope. The square does have stamped numbers, but I did not see any "STARRETT'S.PAT.MAY.6.1879" or any engraved divisions. These of course could be worn away at this point."

    That is odd, as that stamp is usually deep enough to survive. But it is as it is.

  18. Likes honrick liked this post
  19. #90
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    567
    Likes (Received)
    82

    Default

    Pic 5 of 5

    Are there some characters cast INTO the Barrel that contains the Clamping Rod ?

    It looks like there are.

    Perhaps the Rule lacks those Patent Dates because they were already CAST INTO THE HEAD !

    This could be a formerly unknown variation of both Head and Rule.

  20. #91
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    567
    Likes (Received)
    82

    Default

    Another item of interest is the finish cast into the head.

    I always called it "Stippled", but will no longer. Starrett called it "CHECKED".

    Just like Gun Stocks that are so often Checkered. It's quite likely they employed an experienced Gunsmith to work on the wooden pattern.

    This early RAISED-LETTER Square has Checkering that is sparse, as the Raised-Letters take up most of the available space !

    But my early Square has fully-formed Diamond Checking.

    Does anyone else have a Square like mine ? I know of no other with the FLAT-TOP CLAMP NUT that lacks the RAISED LETTERS.

  21. #92
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    567
    Likes (Received)
    82

    Default

    apolune, you own a Type 1 with DUAL ROW PINHOLES.

    Are the Graduations also very faint ?

    As can be seen, my early Square IS Graduated, but very weakly.

    It would take very little wear or corrosion to make those lines essentially invisible, as on c5h5nino's Square.

  22. #93
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    99
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    71

    Default

    Here's some pictures of four early squares and close-ups of their rules. The lines on the double row one are definitely fainter than the number stamps. There are faint graduations on the top of the first one that can't be seen in the photo. Looks to me like the stamps used for these rules are the same as those used for c5h5nino's rule.



    Shared album - roger liver - Google Photos
    Shared album - roger liver - Google Photos
    Shared album - roger liver - Google Photos
    Shared album - roger liver - Google Photos
    Shared album - roger liver - Google Photos
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/hoLwsSHo7hivFaPF6
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/DsoC4Tv8VuhjrofSA
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/pnZgNiDG9kaoKeRr8
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/xny4xCsSC9KTUC9J6
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/ecoGfXo1UZPv9ZBk7
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/eHB2DJg6k7U8p3jC7
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/9yUxdGFQ3NyStjuD9
    Last edited by apolune; 06-15-2019 at 11:09 AM.

  23. Likes SalemRule, honrick, c5h5nino liked this post
  24. #94
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    567
    Likes (Received)
    82

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by apolune View Post
    Here's some pictures of four early squares and close-ups of their rules. The lines on the double row one are definitely fainter than the number stamps. There are faint graduations on the top of the first one that can't be seen in the photo. Looks to me like the stamps used for these rules are the same as those used for c5h5nino's rule.



    Shared album - roger liver - Google Photos
    Shared album - roger liver - Google Photos
    Shared album - roger liver - Google Photos
    Shared album - roger liver - Google Photos
    Shared album - roger liver - Google Photos
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/hoLwsSHo7hivFaPF6
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/DsoC4Tv8VuhjrofSA
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/pnZgNiDG9kaoKeRr8
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/xny4xCsSC9KTUC9J6
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/ecoGfXo1UZPv9ZBk7
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/eHB2DJg6k7U8p3jC7
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/9yUxdGFQ3NyStjuD9
    Wonderful !

    To be clear, does the DOUBLE ROW PINHOLE have "STARRETT'S PAT. MAY 6, 1879" STAMPED INTO IT ?

    Are the ARROWHEAD CENTERING HEADS original to the Squares ? Are they stamped with the Patent ? Are the LOW ACORN NUTS nickelled brass ?

    Is the TINY SCRIBE BALL steel or brass ?

    One of the Squares look just like mine. So now two of this variation are known ?

  25. #95
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    567
    Likes (Received)
    82

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by honrick View Post
    Here is my sequence of events:

    1) Sometime before 1876 Laroy Starrett meets Orril Chaplin and gains knowledge of Chaplin’s patented square(patented May 8, 1866). The Jan. 31, 1883 Circuit Court decision includes these words, “and there is no doubt that the plaintiff’s (Laroy Starrett) tool gets many of its best features from Chaplin’s patent, and from tools and drawings which were lent him by Chaplin." Even before meeting Orrill Chaplin, Laroy Starrett was probably aware of Chaplin’s patented square. In 1865 and 1869, Chaplin exhibited his square at the Tenth and Eleventh Exhibitions of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association, held in Boston. And the 1867 “A. J. Wilkinson & Co’s”(Boston) catalog lists for sale at $8 “O. R. Chaplain’s Patent Combination Try Square and Bevel,” the catalog description including these words, “The Combination Square for Mechanics and Engineers, is the most useful and handy tool in the market."

    2) 1876 - Starrett works out his own design for a combination square and makes a model of the square in wood.

    3) 1877 - a machinist in the Athol area makes a prototype square using castings and a blade supplied by Starrett.

    4) 1877 - Starrett has the Richardson Machine Shop make up a few squares that improve on the prototype square already made. Laroy Starrett’s intention was to patent his square, so the castings for these prototype squares have the embossed lettering "L. S. S. ATHOL MSS / PAT. APPL’D FOR."

    5) Late 1877 or early 1878 - Laroy Starrett approaches Darling, Brown & Sharpe about manufacturing his square. Samuel Darling would have been shown one of the improved prototypes made in the Richardson Machine Shop. Starrett probably saw joining with D. B. & S. as the best chance for a successful launch of his square,Darling, Brown & Sharpe being at that time the country’s preeminent manufacturer of machinist hand tools and a company with special expertise in graduating steel rules. But Darling decided that he wanted nothing to do with a square that had movable parts, saying that such a tool could never retain its accuracy. In approaching D. B. & S, I do not think Starrett intended to give up the patent rights that he intended to file for. What he was selling was the right to manufacture his patented square.

    6) Late 1878 - Laroy Starrett, rebuffed by Samuel Darling, turns to the only other major American company with a history of graduating hand tools, the Stanley company of New Britain, Ct. Stanley manufactures the Starrett square for a little over a year (late 1878 to early 1880). The squares made by Stanley for Laroy Starrett have the embossed lettering "L. S. S. ATHOL MSS / PAT. APPL’D FOR." But Laroy Starrett is not happy with either the production pace or the quality of the tool produced. Stanley also tires of the arrangement, as the Starrett square comes to be seen as competition for some of its own product line. Laroy Starrett decides in early 1880 to have the Richardson Machine Shop manufacture his squares, but continues throughout the year (1880) to buy his graduated blades from Stanley.

    7) Feb. 26, 1879- Laroy Starrett files a patent application for his combination square and his patent is granted on May 6, 1879.

    8) 1880- The squares made in 1880 by the Richardson Machine Co. are made with new frame castings, and the embossed lettering is eliminated.

    9) Late 1880 - the Richardson Machine Co., threatened with patent infringement by the Athol Tool Co. (who was assigned on May 4, 1880 the reissue of the 1866 Chaplin patent), decides to stop making the Starrett square. Laroy Starrett then buys out the part of the Richardson shop where his square had been manufactured and continues to produce the square, now under the imprint of the L. S. Starrett company. As owner of the company, Laroy Starrett is in in complete control of the manufacturing process and he designs and builds a graduating machine to mark the blades that he is now making. The Starrett square is selling very well and Laroy makes plans to expand his company by moving to larger quarters, which he does in the spring of 1881.
    I just thought this is a good time to revisit honrick's excellent study.

  26. #96
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    567
    Likes (Received)
    82

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SalemRule View Post
    Pic 5 of 5

    Are there some characters cast INTO the Barrel that contains the Clamping Rod ?

    It looks like there are.

    Perhaps the Rule lacks those Patent Dates because they were already CAST INTO THE HEAD !

    This could be a formerly unknown variation of both Head and Rule.
    Upon a closer look, the Patent I imagine is cast there, is not. It's just my fevered brain at work.

  27. Likes Lester Bowman liked this post
  28. #97
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    567
    Likes (Received)
    82

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by apolune View Post
    Here's another photo of the square with the staggered holes. It's got to be the earliest version since the rule does not have the May 6,1879 patent stamp.

    Also below is a version with the plain stock and flat nut. This is the only one I know of. It suggests there was some overlap of the production of the raised letter and plain stock versions. I've only seen or heard of 9 inch version of the raised letter versions and the flat nut versions. Makes me wonder if any of these were production squares since I would think the 12 inch version would be the most popular.

    Also the diameter of the clamp-hook (Starrett's term) for the flat nut is smaller with a different thread than the ogee nut clamp-hook. The stocks or nuts are not interchangeable.


    Attachment 244223Attachment 244224
    Ok, it looks like apolune answered my questions back in December 2018.

    His DUAL PINHOLE Rule with staggered Pencil Holes is NOT stamped with the Patent Date.

    His Square on the right is identical to one I own. Mine is even missing the Scribe !

    I believe the Scribe on his Square on the left is a very old replacement.

    Both Squares, IMHO, should have Nickel Plated Brass SMOOTH BULB Scribes. SMOOTH BULB Scribes have no knurling on the Bulb, but do have knurling at the Base Rim. As per the Patent Drawing.

  29. #98
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    567
    Likes (Received)
    82

    Default

    FEATURES ABANDONED BY STARRETT IN ORDER OF LOSS

    1: DUAL ROW PINHOLES on Rule - staggered (Rule never marked with Patent, and Graduations will be very light)

    2: FLAT TOP CLAMPING NUT (Nickel Plated Brass)

    3: LOW ACORN CLAMPING NUT (Nickel Plated Brass)

    4A: SINGLE ROW PINHOLES on Rule (later examples will have strong Graduations)

    4B: SMOOTH BULB SCRIBE (Nickel Plated Brass)

    4A and 4B seem to have occurred simultaneously.

    Agree ? Disagree ?

  30. Likes c5h5nino liked this post
  31. #99
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    111
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    43
    Likes (Received)
    30

    Default

    The rules went from dual row pin holes to 8 pin holes to 6 pins holes to no pin holes.

  32. Likes SalemRule liked this post
  33. #100
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    111
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    43
    Likes (Received)
    30

    Default

    Nice squares you have there Apolune!!! You have two of the no level squares even! Wanna sell one?!

  34. Likes SalemRule liked this post

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •