Strange Antique Craftsman Die and Holder

I picked up this Craftsman dia and holder. The die screws into the holder, and the set screw appear to be for something else, as they don't touch the die.

Fill me in, please.

We have a greenfield "Little Giant" set that's similar. Same dies but they each have their own matching ring so they hold their own thread chasers (yours is missing chasers) and mount similar to a standard die. I'd imagine that yours is the same "system" but less of a quick-change.

My guess would be that at one time there were guide plates for each size rod that went into the "X" shaped part and were retained by the setscrew. The guide plates help to insure that the die starts straight on a rod by acting as a pilot.

Scottl said:

My guess would be that at one time there were guide plates for each size rod that went into the "X" shaped part and were retained by the setscrew. The guide plates help to insure that the die starts straight on a rod by acting as a pilot.

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On ours it's the other way. The threaded cup in his picture is a guide, and then there are separate thread chasers inserted into the opposite side.

M.B. Naegle said:

On ours it's the other way. The threaded cup in his picture is a guide, and then there are separate thread chasers inserted into the opposite side.

View attachment 268134
View attachment 268135

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The OP version is NPT tapered thread requiring no adjustment.
Yours looks like a usual straight thread, SAE style.

A Greenfield Tool & Die production up until the 1960s for Sears-Craftsman. Commonly found painted red except for the knurled handles and the front & back surfaces.

They work pretty much as a GTD/Wells Brothers die where in the case of the Craftsman holder, you use two opposing pair of die spots for one size pattern die, or the other two pair for another standard size. The box would contain this multi-size handle and multiple die retainers and dies.

The die retainer (screw in back) works exactly the same as the GTD collets - the only real difference between this and the GTD collets is in the GTD version, the collets are loose and held in an annular collet holder/handle which will take any of the collets of a set.

GTD actually sold "mounted" dies in separate and dedicated handles. Bypassing the collets for convenience. You bought a box set and got a box full of "colletless" GTD handles, each set up with the thread of your choice. Very convenient - ready to go when fully adjusted.

This is why the screws - to adjust the die-halves for size. One of the beauties of the GTD system is that there is a modicum of adjustment. One of the downsides of this Craftsman die set is the fact that size is not "built in" - but if you're "cleaning up" a damaged thread you may be able to "creep up" on the correct size. Or use an existing bolt as your "sizing."

The dies for this are still around. McMaster Carr has them - but bring your wallet.

A better choice is to buy loose dies on Ebay. You can buy a complete collet (these are on Ebay too) and gut it out for the dies and the die retainer. I think they fit.

Joe in NH

Yes, this die holder is set for two pieces. One screws in (pictured) and the other is held by set screws (missing). How does this work?

Joe NH, I looked in McMaster-Carr, but didn't see any dies that would work in this arrangement. Am I missing it? McMaster-Carr

I originally bought this holder because the die I had called for a large holder, 1 1/2"

Joe

I very very much doubt you'll find new dies for that long obsolete ''system'' or pattern.

Your only possible chance would be Ebay or similar, .and then you've gotts hope the dies aren't shagged.

Limy Sami said:

I very very much doubt you'll find new dies for that long obsolete ''system'' or pattern.

Your only possible chance would be Ebay or similar, .and then you've gotts hope the dies aren't shagged.

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I'm just looking to find out what I have. Yes, the next die holder will be a modern system, although a 1 1/2" holder may be harder to find.

Limy Sami said:

I very very much doubt you'll find new dies for that long obsolete ''system'' or pattern.

Your only possible chance would be Ebay or similar, .and then you've gotts hope the dies aren't shagged.

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Yes, new not at McMaster, but MSC. See https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn...tems/Two-Piece-Adjustable-Dies?navid=12106047

Again, bring your wallet.

I also note in common with the original Little Giant/GTD sets the dies are available only in carbon steel.

Many machinists prefer carbon steel dies. They cut cleaner, more precisely, with less galling (which is fatal to accuracy), and can be sharpened. Even a broken tooth can be addressed rendering an unusable die usable. They are not for lengthy production runs at high speed/output.

Joe in NH

Leg17 said:

The OP version is NPT tapered thread requiring no adjustment.
Yours looks like a usual straight thread, SAE style.

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There is no NPT thread involved in either of these.

The Little Giant threading dies were available in separate dies like M B Naegle shows, which were used interchangeable in a die wrench, or in the style like that if the OP, which had the handle/wrench built in to the die body.

For the ones with the handle built in to the die body, they sold some die sets which contained a handle/die for each size of thread, and each handle had it's own chasers installed.

They also sold some other die sets with only one handle/die body, and a bunch of chaser pairs. You would have to install the chasers for the thread you wanted to make into the handle. The widths of the chasers differed, depending on how large a thread they cut. There were sometimes 2 different widths of chasers included in a die set, which is why the OPs handle/die body has the "X" pattern of slots; if you look closely you will see that while one set of opposed slots are the same width as each other, the other opposed pair that is at 90 degrees to those, while the same width as each other, is a different width from the first pair.

Joe in NH has the proper description of how the setup works.

The Little Giant die stocks, or handles, whether the type that takes the separate die body, or the type like the OPS that take only chasers, are very nice quality, and can be found easily on ebay.

If your lathe has a big enough swing, you can even modify the OP's type to take regular round dies.

Joe-NH,
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, but isn't this page the right product? It has dies w a threaded exterior. Of course, at almost $60/each, I'll pass, and keep this die+holder as a memento.

Joe-Mass

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn/Threading/Dies-Chasers-Thread-Rolls/Die-Collets?navid=12106048

sign216 said:

Joe-NH,
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, but isn't this page the right product? It has dies w a threaded exterior. Of course, at almost $60/each, I'll pass, and keep this die+holder as a memento.

Joe-Mass

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn/Threading/Dies-Chasers-Thread-Rolls/Die-Collets?navid=12106048

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You don't need, and that page doesn't show, dies "with a threaded exterior".

See below for some illustrations from the 1895 Little Giant catalog

awander said:

You don't need, and that page doesn't show, dies "with a threaded exterior".

See below for some illustrations from the 1895 Little Giant catalog

View attachment 268176

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Thank you. The picture explains all.

It will survive very nicely as a "memento." Also a physical token on where we as a nation once were as the industrial powerhouse of the world.

Still, there is much of advantage to the Little Giant System - some of which I have mentioned.

Just so you'll know, the Little Giant system was developed by Wells Brothers of Greenfield, MA, later bought out by Greenfield Tap & Die who took on the name, relocated production "downriver" to the GTD factory. See Greenfield Tap & Die Corp. - History | VintageMachinery.org for a pocket history.

Joe in NH

I find this thread fascinating. There were ways I used these die heads that I didn't know that everybody knew. The chasers could be backwards threading to a shoulder and slightly adjustable diameter.

Here is the same setup on an old Craftsman set I have.



Andy

alum100k said:

I find this thread fascinating. There were ways I used these die heads that I didn't know that everybody knew. The chasers could be backwards threading to a shoulder and slightly adjustable diameter.

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And you can reverse the die halves themselves in the collet and thread up to a shoulder (well, minus the three thread "ramp" of the die and SOME dies made late in the GTD era are "one sided.")

Joe in NH

GTD wernt the only ones to make these dies....in Oz they were made by P&N,and in England by someone else i dont remember.....there is a similar ,possibly earlier die of the 2 piece type ,branded "Reeces Patent"......all these 2 piece dies suffer greatly from having the little bits lost.......there was another 2 piece type,round halves called "Elastic " dies.....I have lots of these ,the pieces being much larger ,dont get lost so easily.