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Surface grinder or tool $ cutter grinder?

Some some/many tool and cutter grinders are not accurate enough to be used as a surface grinder.

Surface grinder can be used for tool/cutter work but are awkward for that.

*So a hard question to answer with not knowing your needs.

A surface grinder often can do .00002 to .0005 work and with a fixture can sharpen some cutters..

A TC grinder with a swing table will likely be off each time you swing the table so more likely to grind .001/.003 grinding surface grinder work. IMHO.

Yes one might shim a mag-chuck or a vise on a TC grinder and get .0005 to .001
 
The 5 X 12 Taft Pierce No. 1 SG has been here for over 20 active years - while the B&S #4 14 X 60 Universal has helped out a few times for T&C duties

Do be aware a T&C ISN'T without its array of attachments

If you get either or both, let them be the best of the breed - not some joke of a toy

Thumbnails show the attachment that lets the B&S Universal do T&C type stuff
 

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Surface grinder will finish mill work to better surface finish and closer size. Will grind and cut off hard steel and carbide. Mostly for flat work and angle flat work and that same with a corner radius or bevel, Grind form in lay down form tools and forms on a part, gage work, lathe tool bits,ect. With squareness, parallel and size very much in close control with just working of the chuck, V block and angle plate, and vise with
parallel or c clamps.
So I do agree often the SG is best choice if this is the work you need.
Fixtures can be fabed-up to do drill ends, reamers and end-mill ends , lathe tool bits on a SG but SGs are not as quick and handy as on a TC grinder for cutter work.

TC grinders are best for TG grinding and *most are limited-good to poor for SG work.

Better post this good advice again
QT Johndor: Do be aware a T&C ISN'T (a TC grinder) without its array of attachments
 
I got a used Cincinnati #2 T&CG to support my horizontal mill habit before I had any other form of machine grinder (bench wheels don't count). It makes a passable small cylindrical grinder, but not a very good surface grinder.

When I picked up a used Mitsui 618 surface grinder, I realized just how bad the Cincinnati is as a surface grinder.

So it depends on what you want to do. I now use the SG more often than the T&CG. But I would not attempt to sharpen form cutters (for instance) on the SG.
 
Another thing to consider....

Take it from a guy who just acquired his third tool cutter grinder, and first surface grinder.

Due to the nature of the beast, a surface grinder will weigh a lot more than a T/C grinder. That extra mass is needed to help obtain the finished these machines can provide.

But sometimes the average guy just cant handle wrestling 1500 to 2500 lbs. of machine down his cellar stairs.

Most T/C grinders are south of 1000 lbs.

Now if you're dealing with a ground level shop with a good cement floor, and are comfortable with moving heavy equipment ,
Go for the surface grinder..... but you really owe it to yourself to get 1 of each.

Steve Watroba.


Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk
 
Not all T&CG are 19th Century lightweights or benchtop single flute cutter sharpeners. :D

Cincinnati #2 T&CG weighs about 2200lbs, plus tooling.
Mitsui 205MH 6x18 SG weighs about 1900lbs.
 
Not all T&CG are 19th Century lightweights or benchtop single flute cutter sharpeners. :D

Cincinnati #2 T&CG weighs about 2200lbs, plus tooling.
Mitsui 205MH 6x18 SG weighs about 1900lbs.
Good point. I'm just pointing out there are some tool cutter grinders out there light enough, and small enough to be manageable in a small shop. However, Mass is king.

2 new machines for the workshop 219 - YouTube

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Well, you ask what _I_ would do rather than what I think _you_ should do, so that’s easy. Like you I have limited space, so limited that I don’t have room for a SG much as I’d like one! But I do have a (small) T&C grinder. It suits my philosophy of re-use rather than throw away when blunt. The time spent sharpening cutters is rewarding (in the craftsmanship sense. Whether it makes financial sense depends on how you cost the work)


Mal
AKA The Felsted Skiver
 
Thank you to all that replied and commented. As always, i appreciate the advice and perspectives. I actually have a Brown & Sharp #2 (automatic) that i picked up for a very good price but have yet to put into service. It came with a nice 6 x 12 mag chuck as carbide bob recommended. As many have said, is very heavy (1300-ish pounds) given its small footprint. In reality, i could probably shoe-horn in a T&C grinder as well if one shows up that is too good to pass up. Having said that, the consensus is i should stand fast and keep the SG.

Thanks again
M
 
If you can get your surface grinder working and you don’t go through a lot of milling cutters and a used air bearing attachment for a cutter grinder could be used on it to take care of most of your cutters and could then be used on a cutter grinder if one turns up later.
You will need to get one that the support finger swivels around the cutter to add the clearance to the flutes .
Those that tilt up and down and swivel on their base as well are more versatile .
Some types like those used on machines like the cutter master need to have the grinding wheel tilt to add the clearance while the support finger remains fixed and work well for flutes if you have the machine but are not so good for working on the ends of end mills even though they can be done that way.
You can see some of the different types in these links .
Endmill Grinding Using the Air Bearing Fixture - YouTube
Journeyman Demonstration: End Mill Grinding - YouTube
Introduction: Darex E9 End Mill Grinder And Sharpener - YouTube
The Darex are less expensive when new but are not as well made as many of the others in my opinion .
If you don’t use a lot of cutters and you have a local grinding shop that does good work you can get a lot of cutters sharpened for the price of a new air bearing fixture and collets etc. or even a good used one.
Regards,
Jim
 
Thanks Jim. I'll give this some thought. If i powered up the grinder it would run fine. I've just not taken the time to make sure the spindle is properly lubricated and all other lube points clear. I did give it a cursory cleaning but i would want to spend a bit more time ensuring all is well before i run it.
 
B&S #2 SG a very good grinder, I have the same (but mine a manual machine).
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2185/19871.pdf

Smaller KoLee a handy grinder with having oil scraped ways...A wore out ball way machine is not very close.. I have tat but don't use it because the #2 TC grinder is quicker to set up.

The Brown &sharp 13 is a machine that can be a SG and A TC but the table with having the table locator V is not handy for using other make fixtures..I use mine for flat knives sharpening and have redesigned the long travel to 31"

Be sure to hand spin the spindle a number of times and jog start(also a few tines)for a setting for a time spindle. I jog Start all of my spindles.. 5 seconds well worth th time..
Plenty of how to grind a chuck here on PM
You can make a long V block to attach to your angle plate to be used as a drill point and end mill end sharpener. Perhaps 1 1/4 x 1 1/4 x 5" To grind the primary on the grinder and the grind the heal on the bench grinder for both drills and end mills.

Another same size bar with a V slot going length with a hold down swing bar is handy..I will see if I can find a photo of this on the net.
Nope--can't find it.That would be a good fixture I could manufacture perhaps just carburized CRS would be fine...
 
Some some/many tool and cutter grinders are not accurate enough to be used as a surface grinder.

Surface grinder can be used for tool/cutter work but are awkward for that.

*So a hard question to answer with not knowing your needs.

A surface grinder often can do .00002 to .0005 work and with a fixture can sharpen some cutters..

A TC grinder with a swing table will likely be off each time you swing the table so more likely to grind .001/.003 grinding surface grinder work. IMHO.

Yes one might shim a mag-chuck or a vise on a TC grinder and get .0005 to .001

Good to know.

Wasn't sure if a TC grinder was better than a surface grinder. Also in the marker for a SG now.
I care more about tolerance and SGs are know to provide surface finishes down to sub-micron.
SGs all day for me too, not sure which one to get for <= $5K.

Thanks.
 
Good to know.

Wasn't sure if a TC grinder was better than a surface grinder. Also in the marker for a SG now.
I care more about tolerance and SGs are know to provide surface finishes down to sub-micron.
SGs all day for me too, not sure which one to get for <= $5K.

Thanks.
If (SG <=$5k<=.001mm) then (SG+sweat equity>$5k+>$5k experience<=0.001mm)
 
I have two (2) grinders in my basement shop. I traded a Sanford benchtop surface grinder to member Troutback for his Boyar Schultz 6 x 12 surface grinder. I bought an older K.O. Lee 360 T & C grinder from the OP, Marka, in November of 2020. I knew I had need of a surface grinder with more capacity than the Sanford grinder. Having a surface grinder handy for grinding jobs like hardened shims and for finer flat and angular work was what I need. I got the 360 K.O. Lee grinder to satisfy a long-standing curiosity on my part as much as for any reason: learning to regrind cutters, as well as wanting to be able to grind form toolbits. Marka sold me the T & C grinder with a motorized workhead and 4 jaw chuck, a nice bonus. A buddy had a K.O. Lee sensitive workhead on a dusty shelf and sold that to me, setup for 5C collets. I added a Delta Univise having to make a tooling plate to mount the Univise due to the small size of the 360 grinder. A tool and cutter grinder is all about the tooling for it. I find it handy for touching up the end cutting lips on HSS end mills (after quite a bit of a learning curve), regrinding countersinks, and grinding pilots and new leading edges on a few reamers along the way. My basement shop is not large, and these two grinders do not have a big footprint. We got both grinders down the basement stair from the garage without any heavy equipment. The Boyar Schultz grinder came down in pieces, base cabinet on a hand truck, magentic chuck removed and hand carried down, table lifted off and carried downstairs, mainframe with motor brought down on a hand truck. Much the same process for the tool and cutter grinder. I lagged some temporary 'wales' ( 2 x 8's laid flat and lagged to the joists in the overhead) and a padeye for a light chainfall. This let us raise the parts of each machine for assembly. Slid them into place on steel flatbar and shimmed to level using a 30" "lining bar" (aka "sleever bar" to the structural ironworkers).

Could I get by without the T & C grinder ? Certainly, but it is handy. It has a universal table and seemingly infinite possibilities amnd adjustments. Let's just say that ever since I first got around machine shop work, some 60 years ago, I wanted to be able to grind cutters. I was in awe of machinists and toolmakers who routinely ground endmills, reamers, and other cutting tools, often making odd-sized reamers for the jobs. The K.O. Lee 360 T & C grinder is likely as small as these machine tools get.

The Boyar Schultz surface grinder is a handy size for a home shop. It has the advantage, in terms of moving and setting up, of not being so heavily built as a Brown & Sharpe, Reid, or similar machines of the same capacity. For the work I do, it is fine. It has the built-in dust collector in the base. I modified the factory wiring and put a separate switch on the dust collector blower motor. This lets me run the dust collector with a flex hose extended to the T & C grinder. Both grinders are next to each other, so I had to only run one 3 phase feeder from the rotary converter. That is the "precision grinding department" in my basement shop. I still grind twist drills freehand, something that was a required skill when I was a student at Brooklyn Technical HS in the mid 60's. It is quicker for me to grind twist drills freehand than to setup for machine grinding them. I can grind a twist drill of about 1/8" diameter freehand and by eye, using a 'carbide tool' type grinder with an aluminum oxide wheel. I grind HSS lathe toolbits freehand, unless a form tool (such as for retaining ring, O ring, or piston ring grooves) is required. I also grind thread cutting tools on the T & C grinder. On coarse-pitch threads, I calculate the helix angle and width of flat at the root of the thread. Using the T & C grinder lets me get the helix angle and flat at the root accurately ground. For jobs like chuck backing plates where the thread has to be accurately cut, having threading toolbits is a major part of the job.

If a person had to have only one grinder, I would opt for the surface grinder. It can do some limited cutter grinding, but its capabilty for flat and angular work is where it sees the greatest use.
 
The surface grinder has a Chuck (workspace) ground true, and bump rails to allow exact right-angle part holding to the machine travels so will retain tenths accuracy to any part set correctly on the chuck.
A TC grinder often with a moving table is subject to change each time the table is moved.


Often a SG has large- numbered dials, and some a pick feed that allows half thow and tenths in-feeds.
Tc grinders often have faster travels of one thow so tenths grinding can be more difficult.

SGs often have ability for taller work.
A Tc has more distance in the horizontal direction.

A skilled grinder hand can make similar quality work with a SG or a Tc but it takes more effort and time to do the other machines work.

Having a work head, even a spin index and a same height tail center one might do both tasks with a surface grinder.
Willing to indicate a mag chuck for SG work one might do Ok with only a Tc grinder.

Putting a vice on a Tc and using it for cut-off can justify its space, if not running cutters often.
 
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Tool and cutter grinders do things a surface grinders can not do without fancy add ones
A tool and cutter machine can do some surface grind work if hard pressed but not so nice.
Yes you can do all on either. With attachments one can make a Tool and cutter grinder into a OD long shaft grinder.
A tool and cuter grinder with travel is sort of a universal machine. It is not so good at flat surface grinding,.
Maybe you need both. Ounch in the bank account on that.
 








 
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