Thayer & Houghton on Western MA Craigslist

Billed as a heroic wood turning lathe.

Thayer & Houghton are notable as being a 1.5 generation Worcester, MA lathe builder, one of the first builders attempting any volume of production and ALMOST to the point of interchangeability in lathe construction.

Also the originator of the current lathe setup of separated lead screw/feed rod with the flexibility this allowed. A machinist of T&H's 1853 pioneer lathe would feel quite at home in front of most modern manual lathes.

This one appeared on Craiglist and it would seem this one survived because of large swing and various modifications aimed at wood turning. Peter (of this board) owned for a while a similar lathe which was marked by the maker with the usual headstock badge. This one is not.

Lest you start drooling in anticipation of a notable find (i.e. oldest 500 lathes extant kind of thought) keep in mind this one appears heavily modified in the spindle bearing/pulley/headstock/back-gear area. All driven by a conversion to higher speed required for wood turning.

Which is too bad - as dimensionally and stylewise it would otherwise fit quite nicely in my 19th century machine shop.

Anyway, for future reference. I would guess this one about 1860ish. Perhaps a bit later as New York Steam Engine Works who bought assets of and continued business of T&H in 1862.

Craigslist at Heavy Duty Wood Lathe - tools - by owner - sale



Best pix:


I will pass on this one. But it has many of the hallmarks of "early." And I do enjoy seeing early.

Joe in NH

It's too bad someone destroyed what was once a glorious lathe. I would like to find a nice complete example of one by this maker someday.

Thanks for sharing, Joe. Jake

I almost want to take the jump. I have a 1873 Lathe & Morse headstock here restored underneath the Flather Lathe. It is ALMOST identical to this earlier T&H.

They might be married together into a complete (nearly) early lathe?

No - (Slap to side of head) Pull away from the keyboard and get back to your senses.

No guarantee on center height, distance between way-Vs, ANYTHING.

I gotta stop looking...

Joe in NH

Joe,

Thanks for posting.

Regarding ‘the originator of the current lathe setup of separated lead screw/feed rod’, I’m afraid I have to make a counter-claim. James Fox of Derby made early examples, including one sent to the Bialogon machine works in Poland, c.1830. Fortunately it has been preserved, and there are photos of it here:-

[url=https://notatkiwarsztatowe.blogspot.com/2017/10/historycznie-czyli-krok-przed-cnc.html]Notatki warsztatowe: Historycznie - Tokarka Fox | Derby - Muzem w Sielpi Wielkiej[/URL]

It was one of a number of machine tools ordered when Bialogon moved into machine-making in 1827.

Apologies for highjacking.

Asquith, If I may be so bold as to hijack your hijack, in one of the photos you linked to I noticed a very familiar looking arrangement. In the fore of the photo below it appears that there is a single tooth dog clutch in the leadscrew drivetrain. As I recently had my 1910 Hendey headstock apart it jumped out at me. Looks very similar to the arrangement on Mr Norton's patent of 1894.

Craig

Asquith said:

Joe,

Thanks for posting.

Regarding ‘the originator of the current lathe setup of separated lead screw/feed rod’, I’m afraid I have to make a counter-claim. James Fox of Derby made early examples, including one sent to the Bialogon machine works in Poland, c.1830. Fortunately it has been preserved, and there are photos of it here:-

[url=https://notatkiwarsztatowe.blogspot.com/2017/10/historycznie-czyli-krok-przed-cnc.html]Notatki warsztatowe: Historycznie - Tokarka Fox | Derby - Muzem w Sielpi Wielkiej[/URL]

It was one of a number of machine tools ordered when Bialogon moved into machine-making in 1827.

Apologies for highjacking.

Click to expand...

No apologies necessary. More information makes it all more fun. And my term "originated" may be more properly termed "popularized" since it is fact they showed up at an 1853 Worcester Mechanics Association show with the "new" lathe layout - and everyone copied it.

I.mean.EVERYONE.

Unless of course you were a lathe buyer and wanted the now "old fashioned" chain drive lathe. In which case most any maker would make what you wanted. The chain drive example at the Wilkinson Mill is made by Shepard, Lathe & Co. which started themselves in 1853 (Having morphed from S.C. Coombs) More than likely this lathe made later for a traditionalist.

And its not like the world suddenly changed. But who today can use a chain drive lathe - or wants to? Maybe some of us? I can think of few others.

One imagines the separate feeding arrangement is much like Edison's light bulb. MANY precursor inventors to Edison's filament bulb - one maker in particular was extremely close but did not achieve financial backing. But ultimately Edison is remembered as "The inventor of the light bulb." At least one source I've read speculates Charles Batchelder as "co-inventor." Who ultimately sued Edison for a correction to his role - and later settled out of court with Edison for an un-named quantity of Edison General Electric Stock. Such is the desire to be "first" I guess. Charles Batchelor's lab notebooks confirming his claim have been subsequently lost to history.

As has much of Thayer & Houghton history. Too common in those days to even write down for our consideration now. Except for a few authors such as Washburn (Industrial Worcester) Rowe (English & America Tool Builders), Colvin (Sixty Years Men & Machines) and a few authors who did periodic articles in American Machinist back when history was favorably considered (i.e. early 20th Century)

I remember walking into the Worcester Historical Society and asking about "Wood, Light & Co."

"Who is that?" the docent asked.

"Early machine tool builder here in Worcester"

"Well, why would you want to know anything about them?"

Silence. Like you could hear the crickets chirping. I was flabbergasted. And young. And I apologized then for occupying her time.

"Well here" she said miffed. "Take the book "History of Worcester County.(1872) Maybe there is something about machine tool makers in there?' Like she didn't know? And I had already looked at the book back in my home town library - which was a lot closer to home and easier to access.

And not even the interest to find out more herself?

Well. She was a volunteer. As in "Babysitter" for the collection.

Sad state we've come to in this country.

Joe in NH

Joe in NH said:

And my term "originated" may be more properly termed "popularized" since it is fact they showed up at an 1853 Worcester Mechanics Association show with the "new" lathe layout - and everyone copied it.

Joe in NH

Click to expand...

At the Worcester Mechanics Association fair of 1851, a prize was awarded for a lathe with a powered apron, driven by bevel gears from the lead screw. Is that what you're speaking of? The recipient was Wood, Light & Co., not Thayer & Houghton.

Andy

Mr. Clement,

I couldn’t figure out the transmission route through the gear cluster. Fortunately I found a drawing of a similar Fox lathe. Unfortunately, I got lost in the gears and pulleys.

The drawing also shows the interesting leadscrew clasp nut arrangement, which is flicked open or closed by a weighted lever. The assembly incorporates a wheel which supports the weight of the leadscrew. Here’s the drawing:-

CNUM - BSPI.41 : pl.861 - im.236

The drawing is in a French encyclopedia dated 1842, but the producer of the drawing, M. Leblanc, died in 1835. The Musee des Arts et Metiers have a scale model of a very similar lathe, shown in W Steeds’ ‘A History of Machine Tools 1700-1910’. Steeds gives it a date of c.1830. James Fox’s machines were highly regarded on the Continent, but largely ignored by the technical press in his homeland.

Thanks Asquith... I read about that Fox lathe in Poland a long time ago but, until now, have nevr see a picture of it.

Andy FitzGibbon said:

At the Worcester Mechanics Association fair of 1851, a prize was awarded for a lathe with a powered apron, driven by bevel gears from the lead screw. Is that what you're speaking of? The recipient was Wood, Light & Co., not Thayer & Houghton.

Andy

Click to expand...

It sounds familiar although I don't think I mis-remembered the attribution which came to me secondhand - probably from the texts I referenced earlier. Actually bevel gears sound VERY close to how almost all these Civil War era lathes are made - except its not a drive from the lead screw (a design which took South Bend and others 50 years to popularize and obviously involves a lead screw cut with a slot) but rather these old lathes have a keyed and sliding the feed rod double bevel gear, arranged back to back and positioned alternately to be drive pinion from a slot on the front of the apron.

If you're seeing any original materials online, like others gifted in this research area you can gift the board (and myself) with online references.

As I say, accessible information on these mechanical origins is scant - and the Internet is a resource.

Sometimes the simplest questions - like who originated the compound slide? He/she/whomever should be celebrated.

Joe in NH

Edit Here: I just checked for many of the Worcester related publications. Worcester Mechanics Association (or Google) used to have broadsheets/guides published for MANY if not most of the years an Exhibition was held, going back to the beginning - these are not to be seen.

One used to be able to look up almost ANY year of the Worcester Directory. Now only a couple are seen.

Hmm. Granted the Internet is a big place - and getting bigger exponentially as more information is brought to scan? Perhaps the total information is increasing faster than the storage space to contain it?

We'll try later to narrow this search. One source online Worcester County Mechanics Association | Teach US History indicates

The Association held five Mechanics Fairs in 1848, 1849, 1851, 1857, and 1866.

Click to expand...

So perhaps 1851 is correct.

Joe in NH

Joe in NH said:

It sounds familiar although I don't think I mis-remembered the attribution which came to me secondhand - probably from the texts I referenced earlier. Actually bevel gears sound VERY close to how almost all these Civil War era lathes are made - except its not a drive from the lead screw (a design which took South Bend and others 50 years to popularize and obviously involves a lead screw cut with a slot) but rather these old lathes have a keyed and sliding the feed rod double bevel gear, arranged back to back and positioned alternately to be drive pinion from a slot on the front of the apron.

Click to expand...

Joe has mentioned this about Thayer & Houghton on more than one occasion.
It has changed a few times from a new type of apron feed to lead screws and feed rods.
He has given different years and at one time a different Mechanics Association.

The problem is that I have not been able to find anything to confirm that this was by Thayer & Houghton.
What I did find is that, as Andy said, it was Wood, Light & Co. in 1851.
Keep in mind that this was not a patent and it was just for American lathes.

Rob

Rob is kind in his comments. I don't doubt his accuracy.

And attempts for me today to find a found last night period reference indicating "Thayer & Houghton lathes received favorably" (not seen today) only invites MORE questions.

Look at Joseph Houghton Lathe Not the lathe of Hannibal Houghton at all but rather the "Other" Houghton lathe builder discussed here. Tony makes the comment:

This pattern of tailstock now referred to as being of the "Worcester pattern" after Alexander Thayer & Hannibal Houghton exhibited a lathe with such a fitting at the 1853 Mechanics Exhibition in Worcester.

Click to expand...

How did Tony achieve this information?

Not to obfuscate.

And not that it really matters...Maybe the Docent was right - Why does one need to know?

Still, I'm not convinced. Inquiring minds and all that.

Joe in NH

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