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Tips wanted from Horizontal mill wizzards.

Froneck

Titanium
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Location
McClure, PA 17059
I'm looking for some tips on setting-up a Horz. mill. Have been using Horz. Mill for long time but am wondering if there is a way to locate work like in a Vert. Mill with an indicator. Yes I have squared the work on the table with an indicator! I'm wondering if there is a way to locate the cutter either in the center of a shaft or to a reference pin in a fixture with indicator accuracy.
Please understand my term wizard is to imply someone with great skill in what ever being done.
 
Interesting reading but 90% I know. Some I don't want to know, they mention verniers quite a bit, yes I have Starrett 50 line vernier Calipers from 6" to 48" but if accuracy is needed I'm using a micrometer. Quite honestly I have books that are newer and better.
For example if I were to make a jig and bore a hole at a known location I can put it in my ToolMaster mill, use an indicator to get it square with the table, then indicate the hole to find exact location of the jig in reference to the spindle, with the dials on the machine make a part to size the first time. Being I have DRO on the mill I don't have to worry about backlash but can make the part to size with the dials!
How can I do that on a Horz. mill being I want to straddle mill a part so that each side is exactly at the correct location with the first cut. Yeah I can get one part dam close, measure it and make adjustments until perfect. I want to do it first time like I can in my Vert. Mill.
 
What I do is touch off on either side of the work and instead of using the dials I measure between the table and the column of the mill with telescoping gauges, calculate the center, set a gauge to the required dimension and move the Y into position.
 
I use paper for doing touch-offs. On a horizontal milling machine, the cutters will often have teeth that do not all hit the work in the same plane. I was taught ages ago to use a piece of paper. Mike the paper first (printer paper is usually 0.004"). Cut or tear a strip of paper and put it against the work. Advance the table or raise the knee (depending on the direction the cut is to be taken) until the paper just catches. Hold the paper lightly with a thumb and index finger and if you do this right, would will feel a tug on the paper as the cutter's highest teeth just scrape the surface of the paper. If the paper is pulled out from between your fingers, you probably went fed thru the paper and into the work. I sometimes use cigarette rolling papers (which mike at 0.001"), but for work with larger horizontal milling cutters, a piece of plain paper torn from a sheet of printer paper or some invoice or similar works fine. I've used this method to touch off for milling keyways and spline teeth and been spot-on with it.

Another thing to remember is that the forces created by a horizontal milling machine's cutters are often a lot heavier than those set up by an end mill cutter. Make the heaviest setup you can. On deep hogging cuts with a slab mill cutter, I like to add a 'stopper' in the form of a couple of tee nuts (or tee bolts) clamping a slotted link to the table, with the link jammed up hard against the end of the work which will see the thrust of the cutter.

The horizontal milling machines are not so common as they once were, with vertical mills being the favored thing. Nothing beats a horizontal mill for certain milling operations like 'slabbing' (using a slab milling cutter to reduce thickness on stock) or mounting a heavy face mill cutter on the spindle for some jobs. For jobs like milling a spline or cutting a one-off gear, the horizontal mill is the best show in town short of having a hobber or other specialized machine tool. For running slitting saws, the horizontal mill is also the best show in town, at least in my book.

I keep some odd pieces of hardwood lumber handy for initial setups on rough castings, rough forgings, or weldments. When making the initial setup, I will lay the hardwood on the milling machine table and pull the job down into it. A rough surface such as a casting, forging, or weldment would otherwise be landed on a few random high points. The hardwood on the table allows the rough surface of the job to bite into it. I do as much machining as I possibly can on that first setup, and make sure I have a good flat surface to flip into contact with the table (or something like an angle plate) if further machining is required. If a surface is not so rough as a casting or weldment, but might be something like a piece of hot rolled structural steel, I will often put a piece of brown paper (torn from grocery bags) between the work and table to take up irreqularities and give a bit more friction. I've also used annealed sheet copper for this same purpose (scrap roofing flashing copper).
As a teenager, I learned in a hurry that if there is any 'give' in a setup on a horizontal milling machine, the cutter will find it and move the job, if not throw it aside. My own policy with any machine tool is to think and plan my setups, and to make sure there is solid bearing contact between the job and the machine tool table (or vise). As I wrote, I like to add a 'chock' or 'stopper' to take the thrust load, having seen what that can be like when I was a teenager first learning about machine work.
 
I do not recall where I heard the rotation/side of the cutter for climb milling referred to as 'the hungry side of the cutter'. Apt description, particularly on horizontal mills. Typically with a larger diameter cutter than an end mill, turning a bit slower, factors as excessive backlash/failing to take out the backlash in the table feed screw, inadequate setup/insufficient clamping or restraint, coming in too rapidly or with too deep a cut, it is a sure bet that the cutter will gulp the work and anything else it can grab. I remember being taught the difference between 'climb' and 'conventional' milling and having a healthy fear of what could go wrong climb milling on a horizontal mill put into me. To this day, I refer to climb milling as 'working on the hungry side of the cutter'. I've seen a few horizontal milling arbors with a pronounced bow in them. These were collateral damage from climb milling gone awry, pulling a job into and under the cutter, springing the arbor.
 
As Joe M mentioned paper is a great set up tool. I have often reverted to scotch tape to keep my fingers free. Accomplishes the same thing.
 
Sounds like step 1 is install a DRO on your Horizontal mill. I installed a 3 axis on my VanNorman No2 medium a few years ago and it's a completely different and enjoyable machine to use now, with good accuracy.


For example if I were to make a jig and bore a hole at a known location I can put it in my ToolMaster mill, use an indicator to get it square with the table, then indicate the hole to find exact location of the jig in reference to the spindle, with the dials on the machine make a part to size the first time. Being I have DRO on the mill I don't have to worry about backlash but can make the part to size with the dials!
How can I do that on a Horz. mill being I want to straddle mill a part so that each side is exactly at the correct location with the first cut. Yeah I can get one part dam close, measure it and make adjustments until perfect. I want to do it first time like I can in my Vert. Mill.
 
I approach work to running tool until first scratch appears. Zero Z. Then move away in X, set DoC, and take first cut. For exact values in Y tool must be smaller than the wanted distance. Rough and finish
 
DRO is not an issue. I have a few complete with scales I removed from machines I sold or scrapped. Being only one axis (Y) will be important in the application described since I straddle cut the part. I'm understanding the operation of a Horz. Mill, I owned and operated quite a few of them even those that were capable of climb cutting. The small K&T I have now will not climb cut, good way to wreck a cutter unless it's a light cut and gibs are tight.
What I'm asking is there a better way than using paper or shim stock. I guess I can make a block rather than a pin or hole a few thousandths smaller than the straddle cut. Move the table after the jig has been indicated parallel so that the block is between the cutters. Then with a feeler gauge get equal space between the "locator" block and the cutters.
 
Lots of good advice there, especially from Joe as usual. I used to lick the cigarette paper then stick it to the job with my saliva. I agree with people warning about the power involved with a horizontal machine. As Joe says an insecurely fixed component can be moved very easily.

Regards Tyrone.
 
I've used an indicator and adjustable parallels a few times to find one face of a cutter- but that was against the smooth face of a saw. Perhaps a parallel could go against the inside of a cutter, projecting past it and you could indicate from that.
 
That should work, then the indicator to the 1.380" diameter plug being the sides were milled to .915 should get the fixture located to relationship to cutters quite accurately. To be a little more accurate doing the same to the other side of the straddle cut. Making a special parallel using a couple of them super magnets will hold the parallel in position. Actually it wouldn't have to be parallel one straight side is all that is needed.
 
Keep in mind that if you have a cutter that's running out, the paper scrape touch-off will only be accurate if you do it on both sides and split the difference (unless you want to measure runout and compute the actual effective width of the cutter due to runout). Whether that matters for most tasks is another question. A keyway being a couple thousandths off center generally won't hurt anything, for instance.

And no, there is no way that I know of to do this with an indicator like OP was asking. (Aside from using one to make your offset after touching off if you don't have a DRO). Trying to use an adjustable parallel off the cutter teeth is not something I'd do. Aside from possible damage/scratching to the uhardened adjustable parallel, it would be pretty fiddly. Faster to just touch off.
 
What I'm asking is there a better way than using paper or shim stock.
Yes, but. As you've already noticed, the process gets more complex, and actually starts introducing additional sources of possible error. I.e., chains of measurement rather than 1 direct measurement or contact, being uncertain whether you are referencing the cutter tooth that sticks out the most, etc. But you can adapt your block for use with a test indicator instead of paper or shim stock.

It's not clear to me that represents any actual improvement in accuracy over touching off, and it's certainly slower than touching off.
 
Keep in mind that if you have a cutter that's running out, the paper scrape touch-off will only be accurate if you do it on both sides and split the difference ....

My deal is to do the paper setup, set the dial back one or two thou (to make up for the paper thickness) and then back the dial off another ten thou. Before cutting I'll use a blue sharpie pen to mark the part, and inch up on the dial until it takes the sharpie ink off. That's the real zero. This is effectively the same thing as "look till the cutter starts cutting" mentioned above, but easier to see. As mentioned horizontal cutters on an arbor always run out a couple thou.

The late robert bastow had a great tretise on setting up a horizontal machine, when in the business of making money. There are very few machines better at shifting stock than a large horizontal.
 
First I wouldn't use a parallel with the spindle running, just thinking about is scares me. It wouldn't be difficult to put an indicator on the inside teeth of straddle cutter since my main intent is to cut an item .915" wide in one cut (2 cutters side by side .915" apart)to see how well it runs. A good arbor and spacers with shims straddle cutting can be quite accurate. With parallel against the teeth, spindle in neutral I can use rapid to indicate the parallel and the fixture. If I'm using a magic marker or paper I run the spindle backwards, teeth will not cut and just rub the work.
 








 
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