Vernon horizontal mill questions

Hello all, this is my first post on this website. Ive been a long time visitor, looking through threads and just learning as much as i can. Long story short, i just bought my first mill yesterday on ebay (still have to go pick it up). It was listed as a Vernon Milling Machine. Through all the research I have done, i now know that this particular mill is a Vernon No.0 horizontal mill that has a vertical attachment retrofitted to it. It doesn't look like the Rusnok heads you normally see on these machines though.

Can anyone tell me a little more about this machine from the pictures? Like possibly what head it has (need to know what taper it has for future tooling). Any info you guys might have would be greatly appreciated.

B&S #9 in horizontal. Haven’t seen that type of vertical so cannot say.

L7

Cbrbt said:

Hello all, this is my first post on this website. Ive been a long time visitor, looking through threads and just learning as much as i can. Long story short, i just bought my first mill yesterday on ebay (still have to go pick it up). It was listed as a Vernon Milling Machine. Through all the research I have done, i now know that this particular mill is a Vernon No.0 horizontal mill that has a vertical attachment retrofitted to it. It doesn't look like the Rusnok heads you normally see on these machines though.

Can anyone tell me a little more about this machine from the pictures? Like possibly what head it has (need to know what taper it has for future tooling). Any info you guys might have would be greatly appreciated. View attachment 325635

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Presume you have already seen this?

Sheldon Milling Machines

That is not a Rusnock head in Tony's photos.. nor is your one a Rusnok, nor is your one the same as the one Tony shows.

I'll "SWAG" it is a very low-power but relatively high-speed head, too.

The gearbox space is too sparse to manage anything but trivial torque.

Plenty of time to ascertain the taper of it when you get it!

"Suspects" might include 7 B&S, 2 MT, or a small collet system.

I had a #0 for a short while- too small a working envelope for my purposes so I traded it on. Very nicely made and fitted, though be wary of the B&S taper setting up <really> tight- I nearly had to cut the arbor out of the machine at one point. Mine had the continuously variable transmission and a 2 speed motor, so tweaking for a given rpm was really convenient. Power feed on the pictured machine will be quite handy- mine lacked that feature.

Thank guys, i have seen that page you mentioned and my head did look totally different. Someone must have retrofitted it from something else. Hopefully there is a data plate on it somewhere. I got to pick it up tomorrow so ill post more pics.

It does look like a small envelope and I kind of wanted something bigger, but i thought it would make a good piece to learn on. Im sure it would sell pretty quick when I do decide to upgrade.

I put a vfd on mine, worked great; in the end I traded it for a Bridgeport shaper head.

My guy might have got the better end of the deal money wise OTOH the shaper head has come up super handy several times... so I guess it worked out

Mine had the bigger base w/ chip tray and so on, but I wonder about running coolant on a machine like that... brush or mist would be fine but flood looks cumbersome at best. I generally run flood on my Nichols, but it has a number of design features to help make that work.

Greg Menke said:

I put a vfd on mine, worked great; in the end I traded it for a Bridgeport shaper head.

My guy might have got the better end of the deal money wise OTOH the shaper head has come up super handy several times... so I guess it worked out

Mine had the bigger base w/ chip tray and so on, but I wonder about running coolant on a machine like that... brush or mist would be fine but flood looks cumbersome at best. I generally run flood on my Nichols, but it has a number of design features to help make that work.

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Aye, the Burke #4 is far worse, though. If not mist or droplet, then:

- "flood" has to be but a trickle to keep up with the austere catchment capability,

- sharp, WET chips and plain droplets are GOING to be flung all over the place and make a mess - same as if a cutter of any given size were in a BIGGER mill, if not worse. (Off the back of often running @ higher RPM.)

Here is a close up of just the head for anyone that might be able to identify it.

Okay, finally got some time to take measurements and pictures of the spindle.
The measurements i got were with some older starrett calipers so not sure of the calibration date:

0.850" diameter of shank through-hole at the top
1.000" small diameter of taper
0.500" length of taper
1.050" large diameter of taper

Pictures taken before I cleaned it up and measured

I'm thinking Van Norman - likely for 5v collet. See universal subhead on page 4 at http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2109/3370.pdf

Kirt, you Sir are my hero! This is the reason I love these forums!

As thermite noted with his reference to "sheldon", your internet search for info on your model 0 should include "Sheldon Vernon" as well as just "Vernon".

Lots of interesting work can be done with these machines and the autofeed and kickout are important features, but you may find as I did that the small size/capacity of the table represents a major constriction of the work envelope. Depends on the scale at which you mill.

As to vertical milling heads, many arrangements have worked with these machines. These include mounting a small B'port head on a bent length of pipe to allow the head to be easily swung in and out of action.

-Marty-


I know this picture may be unclear, sorry about that, it's all I have from years ago when the machine passed through the shop. In the picture, the "bent length of pipe" is the L-shaped pipe bracketed and pivoting at the side of the machine. Hanging from its distal end (at the top), to support all the weight and make swinging in & out easy, is, from the top, the motor, below that the B'port head, with the B'port's vertical milling spindle at the bottom.

Marty,
Thanks for sharing those pictures. I have been brainstorming multiple different options to increase the work envelope on this machine. I may create some brackets to move the spindle up to the top horizontal stabilizer arm. Should be a pretty simple modification.

Also, what is the difference in a 5V collet vs. 5C collet? Looks like there are plenty of 5C stuff floating around but not much 5V.

Cbrbt said:

Marty,
Thanks for sharing those pictures. I have been brainstorming multiple different options to increase the work envelope on this machine. I may create some brackets to move the spindle up to the top horizontal stabilizer arm. Should be a pretty simple modification.

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Look up the OLD "Rockford" mini-mill.

Rockford Milling Machines USA

Support bar was hollow, carried a driveshaft and a large disk at the table end for the head to be swiveled on.

THEIR add-on head, OEM, not third-party, got the extra lift AND power from the back off the same motor as ran the horizontal spindle.

Not so much mass hanging off the arm that way. MUCH easier to lift the goods, too with no need of belted/geared/clutched mechanism in the head-end assembly. Those goods are at the BACK.

Now.. larger mill. USMT "Quartet" . a "combo" mill that already HAS a Vertical head on the opposite end of the ram atop its turret.. .

Some prior owner had face-bolted a simple steel plate to the front of the column above the end of the vertical dovetails, It has a hole to clear the horizontal spindle, and is dovetailed, left and right edge.

That dovetail fits a HEAVY K&T all-angle head.. powered off a 40-taper adapter from the 5 HP H-spindle motor (which has a Reeves VariDrive clone, hence lots of choices as to RPM).

Same rig also mounts a K&T 7+ inch vertical slotter head.

So I guess my "Quartet" was already a "Sextet" .. before I started messing with adding a cold-saw and grinder capability?

"Move over Rube Goldberg!"

Also, what is the difference in a 5V collet vs. 5C collet? Looks like there are plenty of 5C stuff floating around but not much 5V.

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"Mark One Eyeball" off the photo sez Van Norman's 5V one had a longer closing taper - similar to the Gorton proprietary ones with the triangular-ish tails.

Not much in common AT ALL with the Hardinge 5C.

5C was though-bore optimized - good at feeding rod and bar stock on a lathe.

Gorton's collet was near as dammit closed-tail - optimized for grasping engraving or milling CUTTERS.

Van Norman may have had similar goals?

Most of the LATHES V-N made were for drum brake - then later-on, disc brake, rotor refinishing, not much else. Those were their dominant money-spinner, and found in MANY garages "back in the day" when all that was done "locally" rather than with an order to the local autoparts house for new . seldom - these days - even for "rebuilt".

Cbrbt said:

Kirt, you Sir are my hero! This is the reason I love these forums!

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Glad to help. It appears to me that the key is partly broken or missing - but I can't tell for sure. You may need to do a little work there. I believe that Van Norman originally referenced those as just "C" collets - look further down in the link that I referenced. Hardinge refers to them as 5V. You can try Ebay, and a WTB in the classified section here - occasionally you will see end mill holders, but they don't seem to show up often.

Kirt, the key way is just extremely dirty and filled with grease. I thought the same thing when i first looked down the spindle. Speaking of spindle, these are my thoughts going forward....

First, finding collets and endmill holders for this spindle has been pretty much non-existent. They are ridiculously expensive and most are used, in unknown condition. To alleviate this problem, i have decided that the best approach would be to get a new spindle made with an R8 taper. I started tearing down the milling head to gain access to the spindle, but have gotten hung up on actually pushing the spindle out and through the bearings. Has anyone taken one of these heads apart? What am i missing that won't let the spindle push through?

In this picture, i have taken out the three set screws that are circled in red. I removed the ring on top with the single set screw. I cant see anything else that would be holding the spindle in the head. Any thoughts?

I've never had one of those apart before but here are some things I would look at.
You may need to unbolt or unscrew the end cap for the bearing on the large or working end of the spindle at the left side of your last picture
I can't tell from the the other pictures how it might come off .
Some times they are held in from the end with socket cap screws and other times they are threaded in with some holes in the face to accept a face spanner or there are some flats or holes around the outside of the ring for a hooked pin wrench or a special ring wrench to fit the flats to unscrew it.
You might try to see how some similar heads are assembled by looking at Van Norman or other similar head parts drawings on the Vintage Machinery site.
Jim

Thats the thing, i dont see any holes around the outside for hooked pin wrenches. There doesnt look like there are bearings in the spindle either, just bronze bushings. Here are two pictures of the top and bottom of the spindle