Very old lathe in upstate New York

Title says it all......

Auctions International - Auction: Jefferson County Historical Society NY #14486 ITEM: Machinery Lathe with parts

dkmc said:

Title says it all......

Auctions International - Auction: Jefferson County Historical Society NY #14486 ITEM: Machinery Lathe with parts

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The only thing the ad is missing: "Holds tenths all day"

Seriously though, cool old machine - I didn't catch any nameplates or logos on it, and it doesn't look like anything I've seen before.

Not surprisingly, the photographer only took pictures of the back of the machine.
Maybe they don't know the difference, but possibly no easy access to the front.

Probably provided photos. I might call the lister tomorrow to ask if the cutters on top are part of the sale.

AI is as close to completely honest as an auction company can be, and they will work with buyers to facilitate moving if time is a problem.

The listers generally know very little about what they're selling, and it's policy to minimize representations. I'd sure want to know what's under that floor before I tried moving the machine.

It is a lathe probably from the 1830's with a wood bed and iron shears and most likely has no name on it. It will not be very heavy so I don't think you have to worry about the floor. It should go somewhere where it will be on public display.

The museum ought to be doing their job and displaying it,and educating Joe Public. Not selling it.

Pictures.

Rob

TedinNorfolk said:

The museum ought to be doing their job and displaying it,and educating Joe Public. Not selling it.

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Or they should be donating it to another museum.

enginebill said:

Or they should be donating it to another museum.

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The crude reality is that operating a museum, preserving and restoring artifacts, etc. ain't cheap. The other fact is that most museums have way more artifacts in their storage places than what they could display.
Have you ever tried to donate a very nice white elephant to a museum? The bigger and the least marketable it is, the higher your chances of receiving "No, thank you" as the answer, unless it is indeed something that they were specifically looking for.

Paolo

^ Sad but true.

Most museums are trying to hit a "quota" of sorts IMO, at least with what's on display. They need to keep things interesting and topical so more people will come in and hopefully contribute. If Mrs. Jones' 3rd grade class doesn't understand how an old wood machine is unique to american history, it makes it hard to justify the floor space.

Paolo_MD said:

The crude reality is that operating a museum, preserving and restoring artifacts, etc. ain't cheap. The other fact is that most museums have way more artifacts in their storage places than what they could display.
Have you ever tried to donate a very nice white elephant to a museum? The bigger and the least marketable it is, the higher your chances of receiving "No, thank you" as the answer, unless it is indeed something that they were specifically looking for.

Paolo

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It is one thing if the item is more common like a Hendey lathe, it is another thing if the lathe is from the start of the industrial revolution. If they would have asked to donate it to us at Rough and Tumble, I would have picked the lathe up already. That is the kind of thing that you make room for.

enginebill said:

If they would have asked to donate it to us at Rough and Tumble, I would have picked the lathe up already. That is the kind of thing that you make room for.

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Other than having it donated, post a bid. You might be the only bidder. Here's your chance to preserve it's legacy.

Bill,
Two main points:
First, likely this lathe is of marginal interest to that historical society and, I'd bet, they do not have even the expertise to clearly understand what its importance and historical value is. In this frame, it's rather unlikely that they'd find and try to contact places like Rough & Tumble and Tuckahoe, which aren't around the corner and not as well known as the Smithsonian, or other bigger institutions. It is also very likely that they're disposing of several items loosely related to their interest, each being potentially the focus of the interest of very different collectors/museums. It could well be that, that historical society has ten member totaling over 700 years of cumulative experience, none of which in Internet.
Second, in my short experience with Tuckahoe, the cost of purchasing an item, if not donated/dumped, is fairly irrelevant compared to the costs of moving, preserving, storing/displaying such item. Therefore, instead of being upset for them not offering it to any of us, I'd follow Dkmc suggestion and bid on it, if you have room at Rough & Tumble where to store and properly display it (22ft long). Given that there is no much scrap iron, I'd bet you won't have to fight against too many other bidders.

Paolo

My years of experience with local Historical Societys (should be HYSTERICAL)has left me with a bitter taste. I've seen fools blow huge money on a lightbulb blowing machine because it's big and cast iron even though it only shares being cast iron with the rest of the collection.

Secondly, this machine is in NY, which makes it a major PITA once the Society has accepted it in terms of storage and inventory. The little old ladies of both genders involved with the collection will be at the thing with their feather dusters. Nobody who knows how to begin assembling the machine without hundreds of hours of meetings. Then there is the matter of the piece now requiring climate controlled storage after surviving 100 years in a barn with a bad roof.

Looking at the pictures, this machine has either recently been moved, or somebody attempted to move it and died or gave up. It's jacked up on fresh timbers, and it's quite possible once it got that far the loader or forklift that was supposed to move it couldn't or became not available.

Digging a bit farther, the auction also contains residue of 3 cutter sleighs. None of them were worth dragging to the museum, but somebody did.

My educated guess is the Society got the bright idea Antique dealers from the City will pay big money for these items, after all them city people are buying old machines for just the legs. On top of that, they got it free and any profit beyond auction fees can be used to buy another vital beer bucket to display as a child's lunch bucket in the schoolhouse exhibit.
RuthEllen has one she will sell you know.

I just talked with a man at the Society, they moved it into the building years ago and never set it down from the planks they put under it. The machine is sitting in an old horse barn with plank floor. Just to make removal more fun, it has to go out around another exhibit they don't want to move so it will have to leave on skates & plates.

enginebill said:

It is one thing if the item is more common like a Hendey lathe, it is another thing if the lathe is from the start of the industrial revolution. If they would have asked to donate it to us at Rough and Tumble, I would have picked the lathe up already. That is the kind of thing that you make room for.

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Mr Bill,
I wouldn't be the least bit shy or embarrassed to contact the museum and ask them if they would be willing to donate the machine to Rough & Tumble... maybe they would appreciate it going on display for the public with another Museum that has room to display it?

The Watertown, NY museum website is centered around a January, 2018 letter to the public saying they have a new collections manager who is trying to catch up on things that piled up in previous years. They are not accepting any new items until maybe next year. Jefferson County Historical Society - Watertown, NY

So, I am not surprised they want to clean house and get rid of a big machine that apparently means nothing to them.

The American Precision Museum in Windsor, VT would be a place one would expect such a machine to fit, in the historical sense. But they have said on their web site for years that they are not accepting donated items (money is welcome). Over the years I have been going there, the machines on display have been thinned out, possibly to make it easier to accommodate a class of visiting kids.

Watertown is a neat city, built around a dammed river that attracted lots of industry. There was a steam engine factory in 1847 that probably had some cool lathes. The town of Sackets Harbor is a short distance west, on Lake Ontario, and features an early 19th Century army barracks (to protect against invasion from the north) that has been made into apartments.

Larry

I told Tom about this lathe.
He plans to bid on it.

Rob

I was thinking that by the photos it looks like there may be parts for a second different model of lathe on the floor since the headstock and tailstock on the bed of the main machine look reasonably complete but maybe missing the carriage unless it is on the floor.
It also looks like the lathe could have had another section of bed to bolt on or some other attachment on the tailstock end .
Something that might be there and not recognised by the seller.

Jim

I did email the curator about donating the lathe so I will see what happens.

I hope this early lathe can go to Rough and Tumble. I just helped them acquire a late 1840's lathe made in Lancaster, PA. Bill picked it up last week from New Hampshire.

This lathe would be wonderful show the evolution from a wood frame with iron ways machine to an all cast iron lathe of slightly later vintage. I am willing to put some $$$ in the kitty if that will help. Bill can certainly move it safely to R and T with his equipment. They have a nice insulated building to display it in where we could all study it.