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Vintage Megger Testers

Kevin T

Stainless
Joined
Jan 26, 2019
I have an idea to get a vintage magneto style megger tester to check out the insulation on that Louis Allis motor. Are these things fairly bullet proof? Or is it a fools errand to try and get some use out of one?

WWII_Megger.jpg

My motor is a dual voltage 220/440 type, that I run at 220. Should I be looking at a 500v tester? Or will any do?

My grandpa had an old magneto out of a wall mount telephone that we used to play with as kids. Does anyone know the voltage that those put out?
We had more fun shocking each other every year when we came to visit!

s-l1600.jpg
 
Telephone magnetos give a voltage proportional to the speed you crank them, but nowhere near 500 V. The standard voltage for a megger is 500 V. Manufacturers test with what is known as a high potential tester, referred to as a Hipot. The older ones were AC but I have seen some later ones that delivered a pulse. A normal megger test should be sufficient in your case. The last time I had to do a megger test, the customer had one of the modern ones with a row of LEDs. I guess it worked all right but I was unimpressed. I'll keep mine with a meter.

Bill
 
The telephone mag as mentioned won't work. 90 volts ac at best.

Biddle is a common name for meggers, that's the one I have. They go up to
many thousands of megohms. Another approach is something like a general
radio meggohm meter. 10e14 ohms or thereabouts.
 
Kevin:

I believe the 'phone magneto is a relatively low voltage, nowhere near what a 500 volt Megger will produce. I would not be too quick to buy some really old antique Megger, not knowing the condition of the instrument (whether it even produces voltage, or whether it was rough-handled so the meter movement is damaged).

I bought a 500 volt hand cranked Megohm Meter made by "Sperry Instrument" (no relation to Sperry Gyroscope AFAIK)as a new instrument. Made in Japan, back about 1978 or 1979. It is a rugged little instrument, but then, I do not drop it, throw it around, or leave it out in the weather. At the time, I bought a new Simpson 260 XPL multimeter, the Sperry megohm meter, and an "Amprobe" clip on style volt/amp meter with a few accessories. Took those instruments on jobs down in South America and the Caribbean as well as around the USA. Back then, "Fluke" digital meters had not come on the scene, and a good analog VOM, with Simpson being kind of the "gold standard", and the Amprobe and the little megger were all I needed and served me quite well.

I'd look for a Biddle Megohmmeter. Biddle is a US made instrument, and was making hand cranked Meggers forever (and may still be).

9100:

We used to megger windings on generators and transformers as well as power cabling and buss work. If we got good megger readings on the high voltage/heavy power stuff in the powerplant, a "Hipot" test was often done during scheduled maintenance work. The Hipot is somewhat of a destructive test, since if there is any weak spot in insulation, it can "blow out", and there is some belief Hipot testing does put some stress on windings, splices, and similar.

I am an old mechanical engineer, so what little electrically I do know was learned on jobs over the years. I know at the powerplant, the buzz word in electrical testing was "Doble", and this was a whole new type of high voltage testing. My knowledge is dated and kind of ends with the basic Megger testing and the use of a volt-ohm meter. I still use my Megger, and use it occasionally on diesel locomotive traction generators and motors on the local tourist railroad, and sometime to do a bit of sleuthing and testing of house wiring. I also use it to check old motor windings and welding generator windings. It's a handy instrument to have available.
 
My experience is that 50 years on, the old Evershed Vignoles "Megger" units can be ok or have a weak magneto, which means they are not producing enough voltage to test properly. I have a modern unit which allows testing at 250, 500 and 1000v for different service voltages- I was taught to test at twice the service voltage.
 
Biddle made a version of their hand-cranked megger with an FET front end, powered off another winding
on the generator. Its range was about ten times more sensitive than the one I have, which is a biddle 21160.
That one I have reads up to 1000 meg ohms - that's with a 500 volt test voltage.

If anyone really wanted to buy a good test instrument for this sort of thing, General Radio made a meggohmeter
that reads to a much higher resistance. It's a GR 1863 meter, that one reads up to 1e13 ohms with the 500 volts.
That's 10,000 times more senstive than the hand cranked biddle.

Joe would appreciate that I first bought the megger, and then the GR meter, so I could figure out why my old
BMW would not start after it had been run for a while. Those bikes use a magneto to fire the plugs, and the
short story is the older coils can develop a pretty good shunt resistance when they get hot. So the classic is,
the rider goes out to the store to get some groceries, and then when he comes out the bike won't kick to life.

(often if the mag can be spun fast enough, the plugs will light off OK, so always park at the top of a hill)

Taking the mag coil off the bike and using the megger (or the GR meter) one can check the shunt leakage. Then
using a heat gun, the shunt resistance goes way down to the point where a plug will not fire. The mag coils
have a zillion number of fine turns on the secondary, wire that is about 0.003 inch diameter, bank wound
with varnish and fine tissue paper between turns.

These are now reproduced, but it actually took the manufacturers a good long while to get the process under control.
 
I needed a megger to test the spindle motor on a CNC. The repair firm recommended Supco MP500 from Amazon. I bought it, it worked and told me the problem wasn't my motor.
 
I have always used an Evershed and Vignoles hand cranked 500v megger tester, they are much better made than the modern ones, and do not need to be serviced and calibrated annually . I check the output and accuracy on mine using a master resistor and an AVO8. I bought my most recent model ( my last one was stolen!) from a retiring electrician, who had bought it new in the 1970's. Modern test gear simply does not last.They are an essential tester for earth leakage and insulation fault detecting.
 
I took a look on eBay at Meggers. A wide range of ages, manufacturers and types is for sale, both new & used. I was quite surprised at the low prices on some of the older/used hand cranked Meggers. I also saw a Chinese copy of a Biddle hand cranked Megger for small money. At those kinds of prices, a person could take a chance on a used/old instrument. IMO, if a person is going to work on old electric motors, motor controls, or generators, as well as old motorcycles and similar, a Megger is a good instrument to own.

I am guessing, like so much else, the old hand cranked Meggers were obsoleted by the new battery driven/digital instruments. I was always amazed at how warming or heating windings which had been wet, or disused over a long time, could bring up the Megger readings. I used to work with used open-frame synchronous generators on the jobs overseas. These were shipped with the rotor on a wood cradle, and the stator bolted to a hefty skid. It was rare that any effort to preserve the windings or protect them. After an ocean voyage, trucking, and who-knew-how rough the handling was, as well as standing in the open the Megger readings were usually abysmally low. Not a dead short to the machine frame, but low enough to cause concern. We used to make a tent out of canvas tarps and put construction heaters in the tent, blowing warm air into the tent and out under the bottom edges of the tarps. A few days of that, and the Megger readings usually came up nicely. In one case, we had really wet windings. The old style of generator windings were insulated with cambric (a cotton fabric) tape and Glyptol. The stuff was brittle with age, and after a trip with all sorts of rough handling and exposure to the weather at the site, the windings Meggered horribly low. I was going to do the usual thing and tent the windings and put a wood fired barrel stove inside the tent to make the heat. I had learned never to underestimate the local South Americans. Those mechanics and electricians worked on all sorts of things and made all sorts of repairs under conditions that were "not by the book". A South American electrician on the job hooked up an old Lincoln DC engine driven welder (an old Lincoln SA series) and we dried the windings by the method of internal heating. The local electrician had done it before, and knew that if too much current were applied to the windings, the heat could make steam in the layers of insulating material and windings, and could actually blow the windings apart.

The local electrician put a thermometer on the windings and went by feel with his hands, and the Lincoln welder did the trick. I later read about the method of drying windings by internal heating using welding power supplies, and it was an accepted method. I have never done it myself. If there was ever a constant thing on the South American jobs, it was the fact that the local mechanics and electricians were willing, resourceful, and great to work with. I learned a great deal from them at all levels. Another fairly constant thing on those jobs was having an old Lincoln SA series welder or two. Those machines had the magneto ignitions, so no batteries needed to crank them up and run them. I've started those old Lincolns with a hand crank many times, and always thought a magneto ignition was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Simple, and no battery to grow legs or go dead altogether.

Jim Rozen: Many years ago, a buddy and I were riding our BMW motorcycles on a long trip during a hot summer weekend. I was on an R 75/5, and he was on some oldtimer with the Earle's fork and magneto ignition. It had a 6 volt generator and battery for the lighting. We saw the thunderheads building as we rode along, and knew we'd be into a heavy thunderstorm before too long. Sure enough, we were. We were doing maybe 60 mph in the storm, figuring we'd run out from under it. My buddy pulled abreast of me, and pointed at his headlight, and got ahead of me. At the next highway overpass, we pulled off the road out of the rain. A brush had hung up in his bike's generator and it had not been charging the battery. We had plenty of tools on us, and I had some wire, so he used the battery in my R 75 to flash the field in his bike's generator. He got the generator making current again. He had been running along on the magneto, no need of the battery or generator. We agreed that I would ride behind his bike so my tail light would be visible, and he'd take the point, headlight out for the next 100 miles to let the battery soak up charge. I was impressed with my buddy's mechanical skills and knowledge. I was also impressed with the magneto ignition.

Many years later, I was on an antique motorcycle run. One fellow had a Matchless single from the early 50's. We were on some back road, putting along, when the guy on the Matchless was pulled off to the side and he was out in the road. I stopped to see if he needed help. He was laughing as he explained the battery holder had vibrated loose and the battery had been hanging by its leads. The engine kept on running nicely on the magneto and he'd run a good piece before he realize the Matchless was shedding parts. He was out in the road looking for bits of the battery holder. Gotta love those magneto ignitions.
 
So - say I sprung for the Supco M 500 for testing my 10 HP 865 RPM Westinghouse from the teens. What am I looking for? How many ohms to be "good"?
 
I picked up a nice crank type Biddle megger on ebay a number of years ago. I don't use it much at all but nothing seems to go wrong with it.
 
I took a look on eBay at Meggers. A wide range of ages, manufacturers and types is for sale, both new & used. I was quite surprised at the low prices on some of the older/used hand cranked Meggers. I also saw a Chinese copy of a Biddle hand cranked Megger for small money. At those kinds of prices, a person could take a chance on a used/old instrument. IMO, if a person is going to work on old electric motors, motor controls, or generators, as well as old motorcycles and similar, a Megger is a good instrument to own.

I am guessing, like so much else, the old hand cranked Meggers were obsoleted by the new battery driven/digital instruments. I was always amazed at how warming or heating windings which had been wet, or disused over a long time, could bring up the Megger readings. I used to work with used open-frame synchronous generators on the jobs overseas. These were shipped with the rotor on a wood cradle, and the stator bolted to a hefty skid. It was rare that any effort to preserve the windings or protect them. After an ocean voyage, trucking, and who-knew-how rough the handling was, as well as standing in the open the Megger readings were usually abysmally low. Not a dead short to the machine frame, but low enough to cause concern. We used to make a tent out of canvas tarps and put construction heaters in the tent, blowing warm air into the tent and out under the bottom edges of the tarps. A few days of that, and the Megger readings usually came up nicely. In one case, we had really wet windings. The old style of generator windings were insulated with cambric (a cotton fabric) tape and Glyptol. The stuff was brittle with age, and after a trip with all sorts of rough handling and exposure to the weather at the site, the windings Meggered horribly low. I was going to do the usual thing and tent the windings and put a wood fired barrel stove inside the tent to make the heat. I had learned never to underestimate the local South Americans. Those mechanics and electricians worked on all sorts of things and made all sorts of repairs under conditions that were "not by the book". A South American electrician on the job hooked up an old Lincoln DC engine driven welder (an old Lincoln SA series) and we dried the windings by the method of internal heating. The local electrician had done it before, and knew that if too much current were applied to the windings, the heat could make steam in the layers of insulating material and windings, and could actually blow the windings apart.

The local electrician put a thermometer on the windings and went by feel with his hands, and the Lincoln welder did the trick. I later read about the method of drying windings by internal heating using welding power supplies, and it was an accepted method. I have never done it myself. If there was ever a constant thing on the South American jobs, it was the fact that the local mechanics and electricians were willing, resourceful, and great to work with. I learned a great deal from them at all levels. Another fairly constant thing on those jobs was having an old Lincoln SA series welder or two. Those machines had the magneto ignitions, so no batteries needed to crank them up and run them. I've started those old Lincolns with a hand crank many times, and always thought a magneto ignition was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Simple, and no battery to grow legs or go dead altogether.

Jim Rozen: Many years ago, a buddy and I were riding our BMW motorcycles on a long trip during a hot summer weekend. I was on an R 75/5, and he was on some oldtimer with the Earle's fork and magneto ignition. It had a 6 volt generator and battery for the lighting. We saw the thunderheads building as we rode along, and knew we'd be into a heavy thunderstorm before too long. Sure enough, we were. We were doing maybe 60 mph in the storm, figuring we'd run out from under it. My buddy pulled abreast of me, and pointed at his headlight, and got ahead of me. At the next highway overpass, we pulled off the road out of the rain. A brush had hung up in his bike's generator and it had not been charging the battery. We had plenty of tools on us, and I had some wire, so he used the battery in my R 75 to flash the field in his bike's generator. He got the generator making current again. He had been running along on the magneto, no need of the battery or generator. We agreed that I would ride behind his bike so my tail light would be visible, and he'd take the point, headlight out for the next 100 miles to let the battery soak up charge. I was impressed with my buddy's mechanical skills and knowledge. I was also impressed with the magneto ignition.

Many years later, I was on an antique motorcycle run. One fellow had a Matchless single from the early 50's. We were on some back road, putting along, when the guy on the Matchless was pulled off to the side and he was out in the road. I stopped to see if he needed help. He was laughing as he explained the battery holder had vibrated loose and the battery had been hanging by its leads. The engine kept on running nicely on the magneto and he'd run a good piece before he realize the Matchless was shedding parts. He was out in the road looking for bits of the battery holder. Gotta love those magneto ignitions.

Thanks for the good stories about motorcycle trips!

Regarding ebay and vintage meg testers I agree there are some nice looking choices coming up for auction. I marked a few and may bid but I got the itch to put this behind me and ordered a AEMC Instruments Megohmmeter Model 6503. Kinda taking a chance on the seller since he is new but the item looked real useful. Fingers crossed it arrives and is as described! It will be good fun to test the unit also with some resistors. I hope to "spark" an interest in my kids by testing it with them! There are a couple things I have been saving for old age; one being a deeper dive into electronics and welding. I am not getting any younger so the increased functionality of this unit may help me along!
AEMC-6503-Construction.jpg
 
I've had this one for a while and haven't used it, for fear of destroying something through ignorance. How exactly do you use it, and how do you interpret the results?
The old leads are about as flexible as Bakelite. Are there any special requirements for the test leads when buying new ones?
Safety precautions? I'm electronically challenged.

20200104_151004_resized-800.jpg
 
I've had this one for a while and haven't used it, for fear of destroying something through ignorance. How exactly do you use it, and how do you interpret the results?
The old leads are about as flexible as Bakelite. Are there any special requirements for the test leads when buying new ones?
Safety precautions? I'm electronically challenged.

View attachment 274396

Take a look at this vid


It is pretty easy to follow. He first verifies if his megger is working using a couple of resistors of a known value. With positive and negative leads not connected to anything you should get an infinity reading on the megger when you turn crank. I think you can short them together and crank slowly to see your meter go to zero. I read this on one of the user manuals but you might check for yours online and verify first so you dont damage anything. You can use a multimeter set to Volts (in the output range of megger)and and crank to see if it works as designed. Then you can be sure yours is OK and look for places to use it!
 
Last edited:
General indications, since I don't have experience with that model......

Make sure meter reads at the end of scale when not in use.

Put a known resistance across the leads, better, have more than one so you can check a couple spots on the scale. Resistors up to 100 megohms are fairly easily available, but should be at least half watt size for voltage reasons.

Crank it, and check if the reading is corresponding with the resistor value (s). If so then you are good to go. If lower, then the leads may be the issue, try with no leads, should read the limit high. Also be sure you crank at a good speed (the 160 RPM) to generate a high enough voltage.

Leads should be the thicker high voltage rating insulation, the flexible type, and have appropriate clips on end.
 
General indications, since I don't have experience with that model......
Make sure meter reads at the end of scale when not in use.

Not true with most of the biddle meters I've worked with. The needle is about 1/3 of the way up when the
crank is not in motion. But the advice to put a known hi meg resistor across the terminals as a check, that's
spot on. Often tough to fine a 100 megohm resistor. I have a selection of Victoreen resistors (in glass) for this.

The test leads don't have to be special, make them or buy them from test lead wire. That's good for 1KV or more.
Toss out the old cracked leads, save the connectors on them if they're in good shape.
 
Take a look at this vid

Perfect thank you!
Is polarity important at all when connecting the leads to a motor? When testing an AC motor or servo motor, do you just find both ends of one winding and connect one lead to both ends of that winding and the other lead to the case?

I'm guessing if I put 500VDC through the wrong component I can blow it up.
 
Just keep clear of electronics.....my Megger is to 1000v selective,and I certainly wouldnt test any computers .There is no way you can generate any output above milliamps.....Have you ever had a bicycle light generator...and noticed how much energy is needed to light a tiny torchbulb.....you get an appreciation of power and what it does.
 








 
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