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Were any vintage machines run of 50 Hz power in the USA?

D

Dr. Hillbilly

Aluminum
Joined
Dec 6, 2019
Location
Oregonia, Ohio
I just purchased a LeBlond built in 1919 which originally had a 3 speed motor which operated at 1500, 1000, or 500 rpm. That works for induction motors with 4, 6, and 12 poles on 50 Hz, but no pole configuration provides the speeds stated on 60 Hz.

Can someone illuminate me?
 
Dr. Hillbilly said:
I just purchased a LeBlond built in 1919 which originally had a 3 speed motor which operated at 1500, 1000, or 500 rpm. That works for induction motors with 4, 6, and 12 poles on 50 Hz, but no pole configuration provides the speeds stated on 60 Hz.

Can someone illuminate me?
Click to expand...


Multi speed motors. The "crank' for changing speeds is discussed in the main thread, and there are also posts related therein. Clearly the motor now mounted - along with the additional gear box - replaced the multi speed motor at some point long ago

Page 110 in 1911 shows another "crank" installation, and since the motor has a commutator, I'll suppose it is DC

As far as what is on there now, I'll bet its entire time it was in use it ran on 60 hertz regardless of what is on the motor tag
 
Some machines had to run on 50Hz, California had 50Hz power long time ago. Later when changed to 60Hz they would alter the AC clocks to run on 60Hz at no charge. I read about it someplace but not sure what other states had 50Hz.
 
60Hz single- and polyphase have been around from the beginning, along with DC. Some areas - especially in the northeast - ran on 25Hz for a long time. Two phase power was a thing too, especially on the west coast if I'm not mistaken. IIRC modern aircraft still run on 400Hz to reduce equipment weight significantly.

But 50Hz? Aside from the above I've no knowledge of any 50 cycle generating stations in the US outside of perhaps small, private "house power" stations which supplied only a single plant and possibly a few local customers until regional utility services were eventually set up.
 
Other than the number plates being incorrect, run it on 60Hz and pretend nothing is different.

50Hz stuff has a slightly heavier winding for the HP than 60 does. Going the other way (60, on 50Hz power) is more like to cause you problems. Usually overheating.

Lots of guys brought their tools home with them from Serving overseas, this used to come up a lot. Is it perfect? Nope. But it won't hurt anything.
 
johnoder said:
Multi speed motors. The "crank' for changing speeds is discussed in the main thread, and there are also posts related therein. Clearly the motor now mounted - along with the additional gear box - replaced the multi speed motor at some point long ago

Page 110 in 1911 shows another "crank" installation, and since the motor has a commutator, I'll suppose it is DC

As far as what is on there now, I'll bet its entire time it was in use it ran on 60 hertz regardless of what is on the motor tag
Click to expand...

OK, a DC motor makes sense. Pages 109 and 111 state that "any standard make of motor can be used", which only follows if the motors were DC.
 
The number of different frequencies that have been, and still are, used is rather surprising to me. No surprise that, in the beginning, there was no agreement on what to use. But some of those old systems are still in use. There are competing advantages for lower and higher frequencies, but 50 and 60 Hz have mostly won out, as both work OK for most purposes and can be transmitted over long distances to allow for a national power grid.

Utility frequency - Wikipedia

But yes, 50 Hz systems did exist in parts of the USA, as mentioned in the above source. There was a bit of a flurry of electric clock motor replacement when 50 Hz systems were changed over to 60 Hz. Most other things work on either frequency, though induction motors do run faster on 60 Hz.

Decades ago, I got a very good deal on a couple of NIB Rockwell (by Baldor) 5 HP single phase power tool motors with 50 Hz nameplates. I checked with Baldor and was told they would be OK to run on 60 Hz. So I put one on my Curtis 80 gal. air compressor and the motor has been just fine ever since. The spare motor is still in the box.

Larry
 
I seem to recall seeing some old 25 Hz motors years ago.
I think I remember reading that 25Hz had been in use in some industrial plants in Hamilton or some other areas of Southern Ontario in the early 1900s
Those motors might also yield the 1500 R.P.M. speeds as 50 HZ with 1/2 the number of poles in the motor .
I have been looking through some of the old Electrical News Magazines on archive.org lately so I'll try and keep an eye out for articles about other than 60Hz. power supply articles.

Jim
 
Someone mentioned 2 phase, many big cities in the east had 2 phase. When buying used machinery from these old big city manufacturing hubs one had to check the motor to be sure it was not 2 phase. Lots of 2 phase motors were available! Now trying to find a 2 phase motor is like looking for hens teeth, quite a while ago I seen a few at HGR, didn't want one at the time but later for experimental purpose I wanted one but haven't found it. I actually forgot why I wanted one it's been so long since I had that idea.
From what I have read when AC started taking over from DC the Westinghouse Engineers were attempting to make transformers that were efficient using 100Hz It was Tesla that told them 60Hz would be better, they refused but it was George Westinghouse that told the Engineers to try 60Hz as per Tesla.
25Hz might have been company self generation of power. In my town there is a steel mill that long ago generated the power for their own use. I don't know what the frequency was but 25Hz might have been used by similar companies.
 
If I'm not mistaken, I think 25Hz was what came out of the generating plant at Niagara Falls. Thus, everything connected to that grid later on had to be 25Hz. Or something to that effect.

I believe the electrified railways on the east coast all ran on 25Hz. Big, heavy, massive transformers wound for 25Hz inside the old GG-1 locomotives.
 
I understand the old Wallace Pencil factory a bit south of me on Hanley used 25 Hz for as long as Union Electric (Ameren now) would supply it to industrial users.

They apparently had to use rotary converters to make the 25 Hz after they closed down the 25 Hz generating, I understand. Eventually the factory was converted during a move. This from people who were involved with the operation back then.
 
Tesla was the designer of the generating plant at Niagara Falls, I've seen photo online of a statue of him somewhere near the station. Tesla considered 60 (cycles as it was called back then and not long ago). He claimed it was the frequency of the earth which I think has been established at 57something Hz. So I think Niagara Falls would have been 60Hz 2 phase.
 
I looked up my old email and found a short article here mentioning the 2 phase system from at least the Canadian side at Niagara
The street railway review : American Street Railway Association : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Scroll down one more page to see another article on the Niagara Falls Park and River Railway.
I have seen other articles on the building of the electrical stations at Niagara that I'll try and look for later but don't want to run this thread too far off topic.
Jim
 
L Vanice said:
This link that I posted previously does explain why Westinghouse, at Niagara/Canada generated 25 Hz in 1895. The turbines were designed to run at 250 RPM before the generators were decided to be AC.

Utility frequency - Wikipedia

Larry
Click to expand...

I stand corrected, I assumed Tesla was in charge of the design yet no mention of Tesla in the article. From what I read the guy from Britain in charge of developing power extracted by harnessing the Niagara favored DC but seeing what Tesla did at the World Fair changed his mind. I have owned and seen some very old AC motors but never seen a 25Hz motor. Lathes and Mills in 1895 and into the early 1900's were of the flat belt design that relied on a ceiling mounted shaft that powered numerous machines primarily from a water wheel, later from a steam engine. It's possible though I admit I know very little about the subject that 25 cycle motors were very large and replaced water wheels and steam engines.
 
When I was in my youth in Niagara on the lake we had an old fridge that the parents got with the house when they bought it in around 1958.
I remember that on the back it stated the motor had been converted from 25hz to 60hz before they bought the house. Not sure the age of the fridge
but my guess is that we had 25Hz into the early 50's here.

Harold
 
South Street Station in Providence, RI had 25hz generators aimed at the streetcar trade installed in the 1920s. One of their turbine generators was used alongside rotary converters which converted 25hz to 60hz installed after the demise of the streetcar trade. By the 1970s this single flow GE turbine/rotary converter setup was considered thermodynamically passe and slated for removal.

Through my Dad, a VP for New England Power, I came to own the "builder's plates" for this machine. Dad took the brass engine room telegraph which stood afterwards for 40 years in his den on a mahogany base.

The turbine was sizeable for its time, 15MW at 300 working steam pressure and 1500 RPM.

I wish someone could research and write a "history" of this landmark station. It went through several iterations of steam cycle, ending in the 1990s with conversion to a gas turbine/combined cycle unit possibly (not confirmed) using the combined cycle plant as a "topper unit" for the historic plant.

1950s Pix below. South Street Station is to the left, Manchester Street Station (later post WWII plant) to the right.

south-street-ppl-1964c-02.jpg


Later view river side South Street Station showing the combined cycle gas turbines.

15-powerStation0-5c2f57f95056a36_5c2f58e9-5056-a36a-09bd9b3e4d636e25.jpg


There is an AMAZING power plant history that is now largely lost in our attainment of "efficiency."

Joe in NH
 
On 60Hz you would have 1800, 1200 and 600rpm. Allen Drill press I had was a gang of 5 presses connected together with one long table, it had switching that would configure the poles of each motorto get different speeds, I had another that also did the same but forgot the name. Multi speed motors are becoming hens teeth to find and a fortune if purchased new. I have purchased quite a few 1200rpm sync speed motors from HGR and one 900rpm. I'm using the lower speed (larger pole) motors as an RFC and RFC run 3 phase motors because they seem to run better.
 
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