Were old Nicholson files superior to other makers?

Looking around on ebay for NOS USA made files. I see makers I'm not familiar with, such as Ace, Johnson, along with newer stuff - Simonds, Bahco, Sheffield, Westward. Right now I'm looking at mill bastards.

So, were the Nicholsons superior back in the day, or were the older, smaller makers comparable?

richard newman said:

Looking around on ebay for NOS USA made files. I see makers I'm not familiar with, such as Ace, Johnson, along with newer stuff - Simonds, Bahco, Sheffield, Westward. Right now I'm looking at mill bastards.

So, were the Nicholsons superior back in the day, or were the older, smaller makers comparable?

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most files are just high carbon steel and hardened to 62-66 rockwell C
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and how would other files types be different ?? some Sears Craftsman wood chisels were about 45 Rockewell C, why ? cause of life time warranty. if you brought it back broke into 2 they replaced if it was brought back bent they did not replace. so they heat treated softer where it would bend before breaking. that lawyers telling how to manufacturer

Re the Nicholson files: In a word, yes. Back in the 60's they were premium files. Not saying they were superior to some Swiss or German top brands, but they were very good.

JH

Who is the top dog of file production today? I need a couple new ones.

Cole2534 said:

Who is the top dog of file production today? I need a couple new ones.

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IMHO you won't go far wrong with Grobert - spendy though.

Limy Sami said:

IMHO you won't go far wrong with Grobert - spendy though.

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I agree with Sami. The Grobert files last much longer and do a better job in my opinion.

I think Pferd are equal to Grobert, or used to be. I haven't bought a file in a while.

If you have dull files that you need to replace you may want to have Boggs sharpen them. It is less expensive than a replacment and several reports state that the sharpened file is better than new.
File Division | Boggs Tool & File Sharpening Company
Joe

I've got Simonds Maxi-Sharp 9 piece set.

The old Nicholson's were good, still got some in a drawer.
[h=2][/h]

As Joe Rogers said: files sharpened by Boggs are better than new, I have NOS Nicholson and my re-sharpened are better.

richard newman said:

Looking around on ebay for NOS USA made files. I see makers I'm not familiar with, such as Ace, Johnson, along with newer stuff - Simonds, Bahco, Sheffield, Westward. Right now I'm looking at mill bastards.

So, were the Nicholsons superior back in the day, or were the older, smaller makers comparable?

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I like them. But no, not ever quite "the best" at all.

They became the highest volume maker, sold EVERYWHERE so that's what one had in hand. Where top consistency was wanted, one still found Simonds "red tang" or Heller, stateside, Vallorbs or Grobet imported. There HAD been more. Saw and file companies where everywhere back when farriers and blacksmiths were the main customers.

Old Swabian I worked for thought Nicholson crude and unpredictable scratchy blacksmith and farmer goods, bought nought but Simonds or Heller for the tool & die shop, else Grobet, and from the 1920's onward.

To me, a brand-new Simonds or Heller right out of the box was like using a nearly worn-out Nicholson. Too DAMNED smooth! I had grown into metalworking off nought but hand tools, wanted to REMOVE metal. He had always had milling machines, just wanted to deburr or SMOOTH metal.

"Back in the day"

- redneck milling machine: Ox acetylene torch

- Bohunk or Russian milling machine: hammer and cold chisel

- Polish Milling machine: hand hacksaw

- German milling machine: hand file

- SWISS milling machine: Whole SET of hand files, too small to see well

- ISTR hearing that a "pepsi milling machine" was just a bigger hammer. No chisel required, and a Mexican milling machine was a rock.

Used to be more teasing before all the Politically Correct bullshit came along.

Cole2534 said:

Who is the top dog of file production today? I need a couple new ones.

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I have pferd and vallorbe. If I buy again I would go with Vallorbe, good stuff.

NAST555 said:

I have pferd and vallorbe. If I buy again I would go with Vallorbe, good stuff.

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Pferd, Vallorbe, Grobet for "keepers".

Chinese off the Big Box wall only as "bait" to lose, second use, de-burr, down in a ditch, ELSE lend to the folk who never return tools as revenge-in-advance.



Nicholson - wherever made these days - for "vanilla" expendables AND NOT "keepers".

Works for me, but truth told, power angle grinders, die grinders, dremel-class on-up, belt sanders, disc sanders, ever-more modern and useful abrasive selections, carbide and Diamond grits, even oscillating tools and such had replaced most of my file use years and tears ago in any case.

All those other options mought even be among the reasons good files have gone scarce in general, too.

Annnd . I'd even wager that 80% of the hands as hold them these days don't even know they want lifted on the back-stroke!

Surely any file so abused will have a damned short useful life!

2CW

Yes I think so. I once bought 86 dozen NOS Nickleson files at an auction of a place that closed in 1915. They were 6 to 10”, various patterns, all Swiss pattern cut #3, 4 and 5. So they are super fine. The boxes had also fallen apart but the blue paper they were wrapped in protected them. Before anyone asks, I traded more than half of them off years ago.

I find them better or equivalent to the best Swiss files of today, valarobe, grobet, Fredrick Dick from DE. Etc.

I think files are one of the least understood tools in the shop. I also refer to the junk from China as “paint stirs” because that’s about all they are good for.

rivett608 said:

I also refer to the junk from China as “paint stirs” because that’s about all they are good for.

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Oh please NOT! The trace-trash in their "alloy" can mess up the chemistry of a good paint!

Paint can OPENER, OTOH...



Last and best use for three of them was to concrete then into a wall, our HKG flat, right over the conduit for the Copper line to the big US-sized electric oven [1].

Daft contractors day labouring from the mainland will run a hammer-drill right into water or gas lines, buried power and telephone that their earlier and equally daft kinsmen chose to bury right into wet concrete.

Its China.

Anything that doesn't kill a Cantonese outright is believed to make him stronger.

[1]
"WE" don't EAT turkey!" the wife said, first HKG Thanksgiving. Well if that HAD been true, they were awfully stealthy when 16 people at table stuffed about 15 lbs off a 22 lb bird directly into their undershorts in a single hour! Not enough left but a coupla sandwiches and makings for broth! We get begged to do a bird about three times a year now, no one else having a big oven!

Joshua Rose in his seminal "Modern Machine Tool Practice." (Published variously between 1879 and the early 20th century) describes the method (sandblast) used to sharpen files. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/39225/39225-h/39225-h.htm#Fig2248

Joe in NH

Joe in NH said:

Joshua Rose in his seminal "Modern Machine Tool Practice." (Published variously between 1879 and the early 20th century) describes the method (sandblast) used to sharpen files. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/39225/39225-h/39225-h.htm#Fig2248

Joe in NH

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What page is it in the book? I cant seem to find the section on files.

Can’t speak for older Nicholson files, mine are all still fine, but can speak for their rasps. Have had a USA made #49 rasp for 20 years and I use a rasp lots on hard curly maple and highly figured hard walnut. 7-8 years ago I didn’t think it was cutting very good anymore so bought a new one. The new is made in Brazil and does not cut anywhere near as good as the used USA made rasp, so I do not use it. Now...if anyone asks to use a rasp they get the Brazil made one!

I have a broken in half file in the shop that says made in Finland only that is superior to any other ones I have.

Nicholson absorbed a number of US file makers including Johnson and Kelly. I have a booklet my late father got from Nicholson before I was born called "File Filosophy". Simonds was independent of Nicholson and was better known as a saw maker. I've had a number of Simonds files and always found them to be as good as an original Nicholson file.

Back in the day, when machinists HAD to do a lot of filing, there were a lot of file makers in the USA. My father used to tell me stories of his boyhood in the Williamsburgh section of Brooklyn. Dad was born in 1917. He said as a kid, he'd wander onto the docks along the East River. Dad said there were barges tied up loaded with scrap steel, headed to Buffalo. On some of those barges, there were reject files from a file factory in Brooklyn. Dad said the barge captains used to let him pick over the scrap piles and get some of those files. I have them yet in my shop. Dad also used to point out a small mansion of a house in his old neighborhood. It was a red sandstone house, far above anything else in terms of style and size. It had a turret on one corner which has curved glass in the window sashes. Dad said that house had belonged to the owner of the file works. Dad never told me the name of the file works, and the reject files were actually quite usable.

I know Nicholson had been in Providence, Rhode Island when they were an independent company. They became part of a conglomerate (Cooper group, possibly), and likely now exist only as a name with the files made offshore.

A friend who is an artist blacksmith got a load of hoof rasps (Bellota, I think) as "seconds". These rasps have a coarse bastard file on one side and the rasp on the other. I've made good use of these rasps, and they seem sharp and good-cutting as any I've used, and the bastard file face works equally well on steel. My friend uses them for hot rasping of steel, where any old rasp would likely work. I think these rasps are too good to use for that purpose. I believe these may have been made in Spain. I find the bastard cut file face really can remove some steel when I get on it. It cuts as well as a Nicholson bastard file of similar size which I have in my shop.

I've heard of recutting worn files. Years ago, people did it using acid, and I believe there was an abrasive blasting process also used. I checked the prices from the Boggs File and Sharpening Company, and it is quite reasonable. I bookmarked their site, and will likely get a parcel of my worn files out to them. I have some worn "machine files" for my die filer, and will send some of them along with some of the specialized files I have worn out. I like to use what are known as "pillar files"- files with parallel faces and "safe edges" as well as knife edge files. Over the past 30 + years, I've worn down the teeth on some of these more special types of files, so it will be good to have them re-cut. Thanks for the information about Boggs.