WTB tooling for B&S #10 spindle, particularly collets
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  1. #1
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    Default WTB tooling for B&S #10 spindle, particularly collets

    I need to tool up my Hendey-Norton No. 2

    The machine came with 3 arbors but only one shell-mill holder (1-1/2") and no collets.

    I can find collets for B&S #7 spindles and B&S #9 (shown below), but none for #10
    collet.jpg
    Of course there are a lot of #10 collets for the B&S screw machines but that is a completely different collet (short non-locking taper in front, a little like the R-8)
    There are also #10 feed-fingers for the screw machines, but not what I need.

  2. #2
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    and B&S #9 (shown below),
    Not correct, image is not for 9 B&S

    Standard tapers

    Standard Tapers


    VME has 9, not 10 B&S collets

    Years ago Grand Tool in NJ sold them - might want to contact them

    grand tool new jersey - Bing

    ph

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    You are correct John, that was a #7 which was shown, not a #9.

    Thanks for the link to Grand Tool, their web site did not show them so I sent them an email. Perhaps they have a few left over...

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    Look on E-Bay ,a while back some Chinese out fit had B&S collets for sale.My old Rockford mill has a #10 spindle in it and I was going to order some but just got distracted and haven't thought about it.

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    I have to ask WHY all the B&S for a NMTB spindle?

    Your photo - I am assuming this is the one you ended up with (or did Hendey actually put a 10 B&S hole in the middle of this "modern" design?)

    nmtb-spindle-hendey.jpg

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    Dr. Hillbilly:

    At the time your 2B Miller was built, the term "collet" had a different meaning, at least at Hendey. A collet was a reducing sleeve and
    your miller would have come with two of them, a 7-4 and 10-7. The collet you are referring to would have been known as a spring collet and was not offered on the milling machines, but only as the Drawing-in Attachments for the lathes. Instead of spring collets, a B&S#7-
    #1MT would have been used. This would allow any drill from 1/8" to 9/16" with a #1MT to be used and with the B&S10-B&S7 to fit in the
    Spindle of your 2B miller. Hendey used this system on millers up to the No.3 size machines. For the number 4 millers, the 10-7 collet
    would be made to fit the 12-10 collet. Your 2B miller would have been shipped with 4 end mill cutters, one with a B&S#4 taper and three
    with B&S#7 tapers. Other collets including a B&S10-#2MT could be had on special order.

    Hendeyman

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    I have to ask WHY all the B&S for a NMTB spindle?

    Your photo - I am assuming this is the one you ended up with (or did Hendey actually put a 10 B&S hole in the middle of this "modern" design?)

    nmtb-spindle-hendey.jpg
    Hendey put a B&S #10 in the middle.
    img_6820.jpg
    The arbors do not have the keys, but the shell-mill holder has the keys.

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    Look at your photo again. Can we have a shot of the spindle nose without any arbors stuck in there?

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    johnoder:

    At the time the 2B miller was built, the Spindle Nose had been redesigned to feature slot drive for both Arbors and Face Mills. The screw holes are for retaining the Face Mills on the Spindle. It would seem that they like this "modern" design so much that they even put 11B&S and 12B&S holes in some of their Spindles. I think they realized that using a pure taper drive had its limitations, especially as the tooth load on the cutters was increasing. In time, it became apparent that by combining the two drive systems that the most practical way of handling heavy milling loads had been found. Standardizing Spindle bores and drives was a major accomplishment for the machine tool industry.

    Hendeyman
    Last edited by hendeyman; 02-17-2020 at 06:57 PM. Reason: typographical error

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    Sort of in the K&T category - that PATENTED the flanged and face keyed spindle nose in 1913 - which was later incorporated into the NMTB design not quite twenty years later

    kt-patent-spindle-nose.jpg

    I still would be interested in seeing this spindle nose less arbor

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    Thanks for explaining the evolution of spindle design!
    img_6822.jpg
    I participated in the opposite evolution in spindle design. As we moved from high-torque to high-speed machining I argued that the taper drive was more than adequate, and that the drive keys only served to increase spindle damage in crashes! (and was ultimately proven correct)
    But the incredible torque provided by the back gears (far more than is available in modern machining centers) requires the drive keys.
    Before Mr. MaKenna (who founded Kennametal) invented the carbide cutting tools we know and love today the only path to productivity was high torque at low speed for the carbon steel and HSS tools of the era.

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    Amazing - thanks for sharing that

    I wondered what the BIG dia. was in the other photo

    Might be a plan to just adapt a ER40mm collet holder to that big flange

    er40.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hillbilly View Post
    Thanks for explaining the evolution of spindle design!
    img_6822.jpg
    I participated in the opposite evolution in spindle design. As we moved from high-torque to high-speed machining I argued that the taper drive was more than adequate, and that the drive keys only served to increase spindle damage in crashes! (and was ultimately proven correct)
    But the incredible torque provided by the back gears (far more than is available in modern machining centers) requires the drive keys.
    Before Mr. MaKenna (who founded Kennametal) invented the carbide cutting tools we know and love today the only path to productivity was high torque at low speed for the carbon steel and HSS tools of the era.

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    Yes John, my "plan B" was to build an adaptor for readily available collets!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hillbilly View Post
    Yes John, my "plan B" was to build an adaptor for readily available collets!
    Handful of side-lock endmill holders could be more practical. Make one of them a 3/4", 1" if you can do, and you can mount straight-shank ER and/or TG collet systems, 5C, boring and surfacing heads.. lots of other stuff such as small 4-J and 3-J chucks, and more.

    With that to cover yer "basics", yah can scout for deals on "native taper" tooling at a more leisurely pace and thriftier budget.

    Or so it came to pass for the 3 X # 9 B&S, 2 X 40-taper, 1 X 50-taper, 2 X 5 MT, 2 X 12 jarno, 1 X 2 MT .... and a 5/8" straight-tail hex turret on the roster of "holes to fill", here.

    The 40-taper "native" collets were a fortuitous accident, thanks to another PM member. Two other PM'ers, and two sizes of PDQ-Marlin were fleshed-out to near-as-dammit full coverage with side-locks & Jacobs chucks.

    The # 9 B&S collet set... PRC goods, but decently made... came from HH Industrial Products, who've long listed # 9 & # 7 B&S.

    "Probably", their same source does # 10 in "now and then" batches, even if special order & longish lead-time.

    Then again? Hendey had it right.

    "Spring" collets are best for workholding, and even then, best when feeding off rod or bar stock and trying for low cycle-time.

    Mills don't do that type of work in the first place.

    What their spindle wants is tool-holding, not work-holding.
    Last edited by thermite; 02-18-2020 at 02:01 PM.

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    I have some #10 B&S taper tool holders I would like to sell. Two 5/8 holders made in Japan new, one 1 inch holder in average condition with a tapered adapter stuck in it, and a shell mill holder by Pratt & Whitney. $50 for all 4 plus flat rate shipping.





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    $50 for all 4 plus flat rate shipping.


    OK, I will take the 4 holders.
    I tried to send a private message to arrange payment, but your mailbox is full.

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    I cleared some space in my PM mailbox. Texting is a bit easier if you don't mind PM me a number I can text to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hendeyman View Post
    Dr. Hillbilly:

    At the time your 2B Miller was built, the term "collet" had a different meaning, at least at Hendey. A collet was a reducing sleeve and
    your miller would have come with two of them, a 7-4 and 10-7. The collet you are referring to would have been known as a spring collet and was not offered on the milling machines, but only as the Drawing-in Attachments for the lathes. Instead of spring collets, a B&S#7-
    #1MT would have been used. This would allow any drill from 1/8" to 9/16" with a #1MT to be used and with the B&S10-B&S7 to fit in the
    Spindle of your 2B miller. Hendey used this system on millers up to the No.3 size machines. For the number 4 millers, the 10-7 collet
    would be made to fit the 12-10 collet. Your 2B miller would have been shipped with 4 end mill cutters, one with a B&S#4 taper and three
    with B&S#7 tapers. Other collets including a B&S10-#2MT could be had on special order.

    Hendeyman
    Thanks for the explanation. I found a B&S #10 to MT #3 "collet" so now I can use my MT-mounted chucks.

    I like the elegance of using a #10 spring-collet directly in the spindle without sleeves or adaptors, even if it is not authentic. Perhaps I will need to make a set...

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    Sort of in the K&T category - that PATENTED the flanged and face keyed spindle nose in 1913 - which was later incorporated into the NMTB design not quite twenty years later

    kt-patent-spindle-nose.jpg

    I still would be interested in seeing this spindle nose less arbor
    Patents were good for 17 years from date of issue then, so after nearly 20 years NTMB would no longer infringe.

    I have not looked up the K&T patent yet, but were they pursuing simultaneous face-taper contact?

  21. #20
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    were they pursuing simultaneous face-taper contact?
    Not at all. The arbors used the face keys and the taper - the face not being in contact (I.E. - the flange on the arbors - that engaged the face keys - stood off some from the gage/gauge line on the taper of the arbor)

    The face mills used the standardized O.D. of the flange (held to very close limits on all sizes) and the face of the flange and the tapped holes and the face keys

    Here is a little scan on K&T face mills plainly showing mounting surfaces

    kt-csm-face-mills.jpg

    Add a few pages from 1942 Scully Jones Catalog 500

    page-1.jpgpage-2.jpg


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