The future of the haulers' group . . .

The Antique Machinery Haulers' Group is approaching its 4th birthday and, as a charter member, I am wondering about its future. I think it would be constructive to discuss possible directions for the group. The purpose of this thread is to provide a place for this discussion to proceed. I honestly do not have a fixed idea on what is possible or practical, although I do feel that we are not active enough to justify continuing as we have been.

In the past four years I have learned a few things about a virtual group on the Internet. Although I am still very naive, there are a few generalizations I would share:
Mostly, I just want to be clear that I do not know the answers or even if the answers exist. All the same, I think it is time for a discussion and I welcome any of our members joining in. If there is a lack of interest in this discussion, I will take this as an indication that it is probably a good ideal to formally disband the haulers' group.

Archie

P.S.: I suppose non-members may make comments, but there is no reason that anyone interested in the activities of the haulers' group should not have already joined as supporting members. A number of those who actively participated in the initial discussions which led to the formation of this group never did join, which has always been a disappointment to me. If few non-haulers are interested in supporting this group, I doubt that it can be effective in meeting is goals of finding homes for old machine tools.

Finally, I want no individual to feel that I am criticizing them -- this discussion is about the group, please minimize either praise or criticism of individuals. As moderator of this sub-forum I will edit or delete any posts that are not responsive to the subject of this thread or are not constructive.

I wouldn't feel too bad about the seeming lack of enthusiasm.
I signed up as a member of the group years ago and am also a member of the Legion, a ham radio club and a church group,
none of which I attend with any regularity.

Although I have not needed the services nor have I been asked to provide any I do appreciate your effort in having these services available.

Unfortunately, any non profit org like this will have enthusiasm problems, but I think if called upon most will lend a hand.
The main problem then becomes who is doing the bookwork needed for the coordination.
We are dealing with some severe health problems now but depending on the timing I may be able to help some.

P.S. I wrote this while stalling for time on writing up my treasurers report for the Legion.

A proposal . . .

Looking at the statistics for this thread, it would seem that some fifty of us are interested enough in the haulers' group to have subscribed to this sub-forum and be logging into the PM forum at least once a week. We now have 169 members on our map who have bothered to reply with their ZIP code and other information, so following quorum and other requirements for another election of officers would be difficult. After our the enthusiasm of our first election, it has been difficult to run our virtual group in the same manner as a group of people meeting in person.

I can understand why no one is posting (other than KIMFAB) -- there does not seem to be any easy way for this group to continue as it has, nor are there any obvious solutions, yet people continue to join and our "base" of members covers the country (+ Canada) better than I had ever expected when I proposed the group. It seems as if it would be a shame to just give up, so I am making the following proposal:

We hold an election with two simple choices:


I would also propose to hold our election poll for the above question for the entire month of August -- this will give use some time to refine the second option should someone want to amend what I have written and it will give every member a reasonable chance to participate in the election. Please feel free to make comments of any kind.

Archie

I have a question or two. Has the group done anything recently? Last several posts are either ignored, replied to with replies having nothing to do with hauling, and one was even closed. Members join, but does anything ever happen concerning the stated function of the group? Will this seeming lack of performance of any kind improve in the future?

Initial answers . . .

John,

Some folks may be able to add more details, but I will give you my answers to your questions:

"Has the group done anything recently?" A few members have announced trips they were about to make, with some ability to haul. The closed thread was a first contact from Mark and he joined the haulers' group. I forget the exact details of why I closed the thread -- perhaps I made an error, though I think that there must have been a reason. Publicity has not often been well done, other than a few threads with the whole story and pictures.

"Members join, but does anything ever happen concerning the stated function of the group?" Members I have discussed this with seem to think that a low-activity group is better than no group at all, and people keep joining. I do not think that the officer model I wrote into our buy-laws works for our virtual group. I am still very much a beginner on forums, but my most optimistic hope is that more focus on our sub-forum may be the way our group can function in a decentralized manner. If this does not work, then I think that the group should be disbanded.

"Will this seeming lack of performance of any kind improve in the future?" If I knew this answer, I would not have started this thread. There are, of course many options, but the two I favor are moving to an extremely low profile operation without officers. This would keep our database, map, and sub-forum. I can cover all the overhead (easily) and some good will be done. Many small hauls have happened with no noticeable publicity, so the group continues to do some good in regard to saving machines.

Thanks for the good questions, John -- I hope that they will stimulate some discussion. In a few days I will start the poll I mentioned earlier and if it does not generate discussion, at least it will generate a decision . . .

Archie

Archie,

FWIW, I think the map and database are at the heart of fulfilling the purpose. From what I've observed most people who need something hauled or offer hauling services do so on more of a "one-off" basis. Others who have more extensive networks or just pay professionals don't post here. Based on the recent history (low activity level), I think there has been too much structure to the group, but an informal group that seeks to put members in touch with one another on an as needed basis is perfect. Unfortunately, that still requires one person to maintain the assets and act as an intermediary when members need services.

If you or someone else is willing to do that work, I think it would be a shame to disband the group and abandon the assets.

In the multiple years since I first joined the group I have never been contacted to help in any way. I still have no available time, but I do own a fair set of rigging equipment which I would be happy to lend out occasionally for purposes of saving machinery or just easing another's burden. I've made service requests of the group either, but would really appreciate knowing who else is within a reasonable drive of me, so that I might contact them down the line. I currently don't know anyone else in my geographical area with similar interests so I generally do all my own moving by myself. It would be great to have some knowledgable help at times.

One last point. The purpose of the group is to accomplish hauls or rigging. As stated above, I think most members are only in need of these services sporadically. I really wouldn't consider the low posting volume a problem in general though it would be nice if more posts were issued documenting moves and what all was involved. Speaking from personal reference, members here have their share of issues and are busy. Despite that, if members pledged to post on their activities as a duty of the group (a promise made at point that services were offered/received), more would. There also might be more interest if this topic were more public and easily accessible.

These are some of my thoughts (may be way off base from what others think). It would be good to get some more feedback so you could factor that into any polling you do down the line.

Steve Kadisak

Resonance . . .

Steve,

Your thoughts seem to be very much in line with my own -- I'll summarize the many points I agree with:
Part of our problem has been where our sub-forum (graciously provided by Milacron) "lives". Without going through its history, our sub-forum has had it problems with software upgrades and has ended up a sub-forum off the "root", parallel with all the first level forums, but hidden. The last message I got from Milacron was that this was the best he could do. My plan would be to change our sticky on the Antique Machinery & History forum to be a simple, locked post, directing anyone to our sub-forum. One of the sticky's in our sub-forum would be a README that explaining what our group is and what it does. Another sticky would be our map. There would be no sign-up thread, but new members would be asked to send me a private message with their information. I would simplify the info in the database, dropping addresses, phone numbers, and e-mail addresses -- all initial communication would be via a post on our sub-forum or a private message between members.

I think that this simplified form of the group would be minimal overhead so that even at a low level of activity, the group would accomplish more than the trouble to maintain it. If anyone has a problem with suspending our bylaws, please state your feelings here and now. If we go this route, I would produce a simplified set of bylaws to match the actual restructured group. Unless someone complains, I propose to do these changes in the role of a "benevolent dictator". (Our bylaws used to be posted in my blog before the plug was pulled on blogs.)

I intend to ask that all members subscribe to our sub-forum. I also like Steve's idea of asking members to put more effort into documenting and publicizing our hauls. The publicity threads could be in the Antique Machinery & History forum and would act as advertisements for the haulers' group.

Thanks again, Steve,

Archie

P.S.: At the time we discussed formation of the haulers' group, several people wanted the group to be able to evolve to a full-blown non-profit organization dedicated to saving antique machinery. Because of this I wrote up bylaws that would be able to support this evolution by satisfying State & Federal requirements for corporations. In hind-sight this was not necessary . . .

Virtuality . . .

Bill,

Your comments are well-received by me -- they reflect the changes in my own thinking about the group's future. Before I started this thread I discussed dissolving the group with a number of members one-on-one and then did a lot of thinking. At first I did not understand why so many members thought the group should continue when it did not seem to be progressing. Even though I wrote the bylaws, I am not a joiner of groups -- I belonged to a few groups growing up, but have not been involved in any groups other than those related to work since then. I do like the idea of a group without ceremony or the need for leaders.

There are cases when the existence of a group like ours does induce things to happen. There have been old machines that got saved without the group doing any hauling, but by serving as an example and guiding an adopter through a personal haul. We have been a resource for haulers and perhaps more energy can go into that if we dispense with the trappings ordinary groups.

The private database has always just been a spread-sheet on my computer, but it really has not been used much other than to connect haulers in a relay hauls. I have never used a street address or e-mail address, and have only rarely used phone numbers. My proposal for the future is to use the information in the map which is not private, containing only forum username, first name (optional), ZIP code, and member's specialty (hauler, transferrer, or supporter). Because almost all of our work has been performed with this information only, I think we really do not need a database of private information. I will continue to keep the spreadsheet because it is interesting -- we now have between 150 and 200 members, depending on whether you count folks who have ceased being regularly active on the forum. Many of these folks are long gone, but some are quite serious about helping, but are not immersed in this forum. If they subscribe to our sub-forum, they can follow our activities without ever logging onto the forum. We now have 42 states represented as well as 5 Canadian provinces.

It is nice to see that other people "get" the idea of the haulers' group,

Archie

P.S.: I am open to a member with a website who want to act as mirror supporter of our map. The overhead would be very low. I would suggest that this person also become a alternate moderator of this sub-forum, removing me as a potential "single point of failure".

Fewer officers, more elves . . .

Bill,

Thanks for volunteering -- I'll save the rest of the group from the boring details by communicating directly with you.

One of my desires from the founding of the group was that there be members (elves) that are non-hauler supporters, doing background functions. I will enjoy having some company "behind the scenes" and you point out correctly that some redundancy is necessary, especially if we are without officers.

Archie

P.S.: The more I think about it, the more I appreciate your "herding cats" simile. What we need to do in our virtual group is to create an environment such that the cats are more likely to go the desired direction without any officers to herd them. In the early discussions about forming this group some stated that it served no function because everyone on the forum knew what was going on. I have seen a number of machines go to the scrapper while a discussion about how sad it was proceeded. I have seen other machines find good homes due to both public & private communications by the members of the haulers' group.

Perhaps I don't see it because I may live in an area with little activity but I have not seen or been contacted regarding saving, storing, or moving anything. If that is generally the case, then it seems there needs to be more activity to justify the groups existence. One thing that might be considered is to expand the functions to include "inspection" of machinery that other members have an interest in but is located too far away for a visit in person. Providing advice like that to a prospective purchaser may be more than anyone wants to take on but caveat emptor should remain the rule.

Inspections . . .

Earl,

Machine inspection and just about anything related to helping relocate an antique machine to a better home is all part of the haulers' group charter. We have done a few inspections in the past and certainly could do more, but no need to expand anything. Hauler group members have more often than not participated in threads related to saving machinery without identifying themselves as group members. For those who believe that the group should continue to exist, I would ask that they not be too shy about being members of the group.

I will try to get this sub-forum in better shape to help members and non-members better understand the group. The formation of the group followed a long discussion, so all the charter members were very aware of the group's goals. As more people joined I was negligent regarding keeping this information public and when the public form of our bylaws disappeared with blogs, I did not do anything to inform new members of our roots.

I have in draft a README sticky that will give out details that everyone needs to know about. I intend to make this a locked thread so as to keep it organized and easy to read. I will also start a parallel FEEDBACK thread in which all members can critique the README (or any other action of the group). I hope to put this all together following our August decision-making poll, but any one is welcome to post in this thread or to start their own thread.

Archie

Looking for inputs . . .

Our poll is off to a good start and the sentiment so far is to go toward a more simple structure. I have started to post some of the sticky threads I think are necessary to streamline signup of new members and other housekeeping. If anyone wants to discuss, critique, or add to what I am doing, please feel free to post here or start a thread focused on a particular thing (or send a private message). I am working on a README post that will help keep us all "on the same page", so feel free to put forth items about the group that need better explanation.

My intention is to get all of this started, not to dictate something rigid, but to be able to evolve as the group evolves. I really appreciate the participation so far and am optimistic about the future of the group.

Thanks,

Archie

P.S.: If you have not yet voted in the poll, please do so.

I think that the present economy has a lot to do with interest in the haulers group, The price of gas, people having a hard time making ends meet are making decisions based on what they need and not so much on what they want. If things get better the haulers group will come back to life IMHO.

Thank you.

James

While I have been absent the last couple of years on the forum, still have a great desire to help save old machines. The economy is hurting potential helpers due to gas costs, repair bills for trucks and trailers and of course the price of scrap iron. These have all limited the movement of larger machines.

For a different viewpoint on moving cast iron check out
Old Woodworking Machines • Login
I don't think that you need to registered to view, but not sure.

This is a forum for the old wood working machine people that need help picking up and moving cast iron. Of course they tend to stay under 500 pounds and there is a larger audience for wood than metal.

Not sure if their approach would work for the metal working group or not.

Archie keep up the good work, I think this group is needed, just not sure on the best way for people to get in touch with each other when the need arises.

Marshall

Hi, I voted to minimize. The group will come in handy for some moves for members in the future im sure so keep the database and such. You have my email address in your info right ? If anyone thinks I might be helpful on a move let me know.

This year I did 2 trips to save machines and store them but both trips were only 200 miles away and I didnt need to take up anyone elses time to help me with labor.
I got the cinci shaper in March and the 19in Sidney in July.

Overlap . . .

While there has not been any formal coordination, there is overlap. I have done a few hauls of wood-working equipment, but there was nothing very exciting about them so I did not bother chronicling them here. One of the options in our old, more complicated database was to haul other old iron beyond metal-working machine tools and at least half our membership was willing.

Our lean approach to organization places all such decisions on the actual haulers, so I suggest any member who is a "cross-over" (works both wood & metal) or wants to help the wood-workers, go ahead a start a thread on a potential haul. As with any other haul, it will "come together" or not, depending on the salesmanship of the poster. One of the many functions for supporters that want to help save old iron, but cannot haul themselves is to be "instigators" and "chronlclers" -- one of the driving forces of life on a forum seems to be entertaining and informing each other in words & pictures. The better job each of us do, the more old iron will be saved.

Not all old machines can be saved, but we can improve the odds by being active on our sub-forum and on the Antique Machinery & History forum. Remember, there are no formal officers any more -- we all need to "mind the store".

Thanks,

Archie

Marshall Henderson said:

While I have been absent the last couple of years on the forum, still have a great desire to help save old machines. The economy is hurting potential helpers due to gas costs, repair bills for trucks and trailers and of course the price of scrap iron. These have all limited the movement of larger machines.
Marshall

Click to expand...

The above is all very true.

Another discouraging point is in the years following an early and very published haul, little or nothing was heard about the repair and restoration of the machine. Did those involved "save a historic machine" or just add to the collector of a "hoarder"?

Eye of the beholder . . .

Reggie & Bill,

I must admit that it took me a while to even see that hoarders exist, but over the past four years I have actually seen some of the hoards. (No one should necessarily feel that I am making a direct reference to them -- the hoarder I visited last week had many dozens of hit & miss engines, with not much happening than storing them out of the weather and was definitely a part of the PM forum.) I do agree that when we talk about a machine "going to a good home", there is a "pecking order" in mind. The best home is one where the machine will be carefully and properly restored -- able to do the work it was designed to do and also preserving history. The bottom is the scrapper, where even if it is there only temporarily and then is "rescued" it will suffer from broken handles and other abuse. Bill is right -- a hoarder is better than the scrapper and when we perceive a hoard, we should watch it -- sooner or later the hoarder will (voluntarily or involuntarily) let go of his hoard. It is then that some machines may get another chance -- after a machine is melted, all the history represented by that machine is lost.

Reggie also makes a very good point: We should encourage sharing the haul (as a resource to other haulers) and sharing the restoration. Not everyone is good at this, but if we do not encourage those that do share and needle those who don't, we loose part of what fuels our activities. I will repeat: it is the job of all of us who are interested in saving old iron to take part in our sub-forum and to help represent us in the Antique Machinery & History forum.

Thanks,

Archie

Likely as not, when the hoarder dies, becomes mentally or physically incapacitated, few, if any of us will ever hear about it. That "collection" will be liquidated (disposed of) by well meaning heirs or other holders of the power of attorney by the simplest and most expedient manner possible.

A few well written lines in a will or power of attorney can prevent this from happening. How many of us completely fair in this regard? I know that I haven't failed to plan.