Using 5C collets in Monarch EE

BobWelland · Nov 18, 2002

I just got a Monarch EE circa 1970 and am interested in using 5C collets with it (It presently has a 4-jaw chuck). Seems like there are three ways,
1. Hardinge-Sjogren speed chuck (expensive)
2. Royal D1-3 to 5C adaptor (also expensive)
3. ??? taper to 5C
I have a draw bar but no adaptor. Presumably, option 3 would be the cheapest if I could figure out the taper in my spindle.

Any opinions?

Sincerely,
Bob Welland

clocker2 · Nov 18, 2002

I believe its a #12 Jarno taper.
Jeff

J Tiers · Nov 18, 2002

How about "clock" the taper and make a closer? Later you can buy one if you want.

Cheap, fast, and very accurate if you put it back the same way every time.

At least you have a good lathe to make it with!

ole.steen · Nov 20, 2002

There have been some of the original (Monarch) d1-3 to 5C adapters on Ebay from time to time. You'll need the drawbar as well, of course.

BobWelland · Nov 23, 2002

I have the drawbar so I'll keep looking for the elusive D1-3 to 5C! Thanks.

peterh5322 · Jan 5, 2003

Kalamazoo makes a 5C chuck which is apparently intended to be mounted on a horizontal fixture, but can also be chucked in a 3-jaw, or mounted on a plain back. Three 1/4-20 mounting bolts.

About $289, new, from the "usual suspects", or about $125, used, on e-bone.

These chucks are steel (not cast iron) and are hardened through and through. No possibility to modify them for "set true".

For the ultimate in convenience, a Sjogren (made since 1929) are great, but expensive. Direct mounted, so no "set true".

A Bison with "set true" (or conventional) with the appropriate D1-3 back is also an option.

fausto · Jan 9, 2003

I might have a spare adaptor (D1-3 to 5C) can you get me a lever type closer?

hal ware · Feb 10, 2003

the spindle is a jarno taper--can't remember which, but you can get that info from Monarch or measure the hole--Royal sells a jarno insert for the EE which takes a 5C--this is probably the least expensive route[if you make your own closer and handle] and is more accurate than the other options

wrench · Feb 10, 2003

Hi Bob...
I have an extra nose (excellent condition) and a rough handwheel type drawbar that I may be willing to part with. I've been thinking about it for a long time, but it is one of those things that keeps getting pushed back to the end of the stack.

The drawbar is fine (needs painting) except someone banged the threaded end of the tube. The net result is that although you can thread a collet in, it isn't perfect. Several obvious possibilities are to make a new drawtube, cut and weld a new threaded area, etc, etc.

Alan

Fred T · Feb 10, 2003

There is a collet closer on epay right now. Her eis the link and if is doesn't work serach for Monarch lathes. Oh yea there is a ee there too.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3310351658&category=25295
Good luck
Fred T

BobWelland · Feb 20, 2003

I picked up the Monarch nose to go with my drawbar. I ended up with an extra drawbar that is not in great shape - the hand wheel is broken (it had been brazed or something and re-broke on shipment). It also seems like it used to be a longer drawbar insofar as the end has been made either shorter or perhaps longer. If anyone is interested in trying to ressurect this beast I would be happy to talk.

Cheers,
Bob Welland

mike thomas · Feb 20, 2003

I have a d1-3 adapter to what I have been told is a M collet. It is a reverse taper. anybody heard of this? Mike

donie · Jun 4, 2003

A 5c collet chuck can be made using a 5c collet holder MSC#84940600 page 1577, An old d13 back plate with a piece of steel fastend to it can be bored for this collet holder and you will have a collet chuck. You can shape the the two pieces such as a buck ajust true chuck and bore it for the collet holder then you will have an adjust true 5c collet chuck as I use on my EEs, DD

peterh5322 · Jun 4, 2003

"You can shape the the two pieces such as a buck ajust true chuck and bore it for the collet holder then you will have an adjust true 5c collet chuck as I use on my EEs"

Wouldn't this 5C "collet holder", chucked in a good quality D1-3 4-jaw, such as the 8" Skinner which is usually found branded with the same EExxxxx number as the machine it was sold with (at least in my case) be preferable to the above?

This approach would certainly preserve the equivalent of a "Set True" function, and would make good use of an otherwise underused accessory.

Peter.

donie · Jun 5, 2003

Hi, Peter
Yes this could be chucked in a 4 jaw, but this would tie up a chuck. I am using a hand wheel closer for this item not the nut that comes with it. The chuck that I have built is the same diameter as the EE spindle nose and about as long as the bullet shaped monarch 5c nose. I gave the front piece a lot of taper so that it is easy to back face a part such as an engine valve. Also the small diameter of the unit allows the use of the high speeds available to us, "The Certified Insane" I will post a picture of the unit I built as soon as I can. I modified a sioux valve grinder with this same concept using an Erickson 100 DA collet chuck for a Nascar engine builder, allowing him to grind valves within a tenth. DD

peterh5322 · Jun 5, 2003

D1-3 backs are very tough to come by here, hence my suggestion to use a 4-jaw.

What I'd like to know is if there is a "source" of unfinished D1-3 backs, ones not drilled and counterbored for a specific chuck mount, but which otherwise is completely finished on the D1-3 side?

I thought Phase II might have something, but apparently not.

ole.steen · Jun 7, 2003

There is currently a collet chuck on ebay, check out http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2536765235&category=41946

Ole

JimK · Jun 7, 2003

Thomas:

The reverse taper collet was used in the Monarch "Speedi-Matic" Turret Lathe version of the Model EE

howard d · Jun 8, 2003

I'm making a couple 5C spindle nose closers modeled after the Monarch version. Does anyone know the angle or taper of the 5C nose? I can set up and measure it if needed.

howard d · Jun 9, 2003

I did set up and measured the angle. Taking three measurments on each of five different 5C collets, I calculated the angle to be between 10.2 and 10.5 deg. Measuring directly with a protractor, I get slightly more that 10 deg. My Hardinge collet catalog does not list angles for collets, but in the back it has a discussion on "Precision Length Control" (assuming they are using 5C collets in the example). This discussion references a 10 deg Closing Angle.

I set my compound to 10+ deg and cut the closing angle in the spindle nose. Collets fit like a glove and it works great. Measured the TIR with a piece of 1" hardened and ground rod. At the spindle nose its reads 0.0 with a tenths reading indicator (even repositioned indicator to ensure I was not bottomed out). At 6" from nose the TIR was a whopping 0.0002". I even rotated the fixture with respect to the other pin positions and obtained the same readings. Guess collet closer this is a keeper.

Using 5C collets in Monarch EE

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