Hardinge 440V to 208/220 conversion

How hard is it to change a 440V machine to a more reasonable voltage for the home shop? I'm half thinking of a HLV-H in the future, and I want to know if I should avoid the 440V machines....Hmmm, are they less desireable too?

Alan

On my Hardinge, it is just a matter of reconnecting the transformer in the electrical cabinet. The data plate on my lathe reads 440, but it was wired for 220 when I got it....the previous owner said he ran it on 220. Being a doubting Thomas, I looked into the cabinet. I was lucky enough to find a folded paper wiring diagram from Hardinge in the paper/manual holder mounted inside the electrial cabinet door. As I recall, it would be a simple matter of swithcing two wires on the wiring terminals connected to the autotransformer.

Mind you, I just got my lathe and I'm still in the process of setting up shop and 3 phase power sooo, I may yet go up in blue smoke myself!!

Check for documentation and let me know if I can help.

Mike

Hi Mike,
Thanks for the response. Actually, I'm kind of surprised that it was that easy. When I originally added the post, I thought people would say that the motor had to be swapped too. That would make sense.... a transformer for the electrical control side, and a new motor. I hadn't expected an isolation transformer capable of servicing the motor too. I wonder if your experience is true for all 440V HLV-H machines...

Alan

[This message has been edited by wrench (edited 10-24-2003).]

That's intersting Doug.

The connection change I mentioned was per Hardinge directions included with the machine. My machine was made in the early 1990's. I am far from being even barely knowledgeable on such matters, but the drawing clearly states on which terminal the wires go for either 220 or 440 operation. I seem to remember Hardindge referring to the transformer as an autotransformer; the various connections must be to alternate windings. The according to the drawings, the machine is wired for 220, which jives with what the previous owner told me, the plate indicates 440 however.

With your warning, I'm going to have even more trepidation when I plug the thing in for the first time!

Mike

Doug has it absolutely right. And there's little reason to worry about 440v safety that you wouldn't also be concerned with at 220v. This issue has been discussed a *bunch* of times in this forum and is available to you if you would like to search the archives. Lots of good info in there. Then you can post some questions that will be tailored to your specific situation. The alternative is a minimal number of generic responses that may or may not apply to you.

Doug is right, I have never seen a dual voltage 2speed 3phase motor, my chucker is 220 only, if you have a high voltage motor use a transformer.
Don

Hi AAFRadio:
Actually, I looked through the archive and didn't see a title representative of the question I originally posted. That said, I did not do a search as I don't know where it is... I really should look that one up... sorry. Anyhow, I pretty well learned what I needed to know. Namely, that you can't make a 440V to 220V conversion very easily, but it isn't a big deal either. As for safety. That was never an issue. In fact, the higher voltage is really more attractive to me from the pure safety perspective. The Europeans have always been ahead of us in the states inn that regard.
Alan

mmambro, you are wrong my friend. All you're doing with the transformer in the cabinet is changing the ~control~ voltages, not the motor voltage. Doing this can "seem" to work, as a 440 volt motor, if not under strain during startup, will run just fine and dandy on 220 volts. The catch is, it has perhaps one third the horsepower it should have.

donie, dual voltage two speed motors are rare, but do exist....even on a Hardinge. I had a 1978 vintage HLV-H with General Electric, 2 speed, dual voltage motor once. Rather than the usual 9 leads one finds in dual voltage single speed motors, this one had ~18~ leads that had to be reconfigured to change voltages. Slightly more PITA to deal with than 9 wires, but not too bad really.

Alan, I'll admit it takes a bit of fiddling with the search criteria... Probably the best rundown is at the subject "Hardinge HLV-H (used 1982)."

Best wishes,
Mike

I'm glad I haven't started my lathe yet then!

What should I do? Buy a step-up transformer?

What, if anything should I do about the wiring in the cabinet?

I don't know where to go from here, and if I need the transformer, where to find one.

Thank you for the help!

Mike

Boy, am I glad Wrench asked this question!!! You just don't know what you don't know!

I took a look at my lathe. The changes I mentioned were the jumpers on the transformer, which I now understand are for changing the control voltages to operate from either 230 or 460.

I also took a look at the motor, the plate says it is a GE induction motor. The voltage is indicated as 460/230.

Does that mean I can safely and adequately operate from 230 by doing nothing?

Sorry if these are very elementry questions, but I'm out of my league here.

Thanks,

Mike

mm, the bottom line is, if you hook it up to 220 volts and everything works, and you have enough HP, then it's fine. You can't hurt anything runing a 440 connected control box on 220...it just won't "do anything". And you can't hurt anything by running a 440 connected motor on 220...it just won't have enough HP. But the inverse is very much not the case...you can hurt quite a bit by hooking 440 volts to 220 volt equipment

RE you motor nameplate, sounds like your in luck and have a dual voltage motor. So if previous owner sez he changed it, he probably did. Only thing to perhaps be aware of, is to see if he also changed the "heaters" on the magnetic starters, because if it was 440 at one time, the trip heaters may still be set for tripping at at half the amperage they need to be set at for 220 volts. But here again, you can't "hurt" anything even if they aren't right, you'll just have the machine shut down next time it's under load. So if that happens check the heater elements.

Btw, when dealing with machinery "messed with" by previous owners, always make sure the green wire really is the ground wire !

In general I have found that it is alot easier to put a transformer on a machine if you have to switch more than a few items to change the voltage. IE if the motor is not dual voltage , or if the starter needs replacing and the control transformers need replacing etc. If things in general are correct, ie a dual voltage motor, dual voltage control transformer and properly sized starter, then it is pretty easy to change all the voltages, maybe the hardest part is figuring out the heater sizes. One tip is to allways open up the motor wiring box and check the taps, I have found those not as advertized many times, also, I have found dual voltage motors rewound as single voltage, and the tags not properly marked.
Transformers are pretty cheap and you can find them used even cheaper. Check Bruce Electric for new and used, they are very helpfull.

Thank you to Wrench for asking the question, and thank you to everyone else for your help.

Mike

"I also took a look at the motor, the plate says it is a GE induction motor. The voltage is indicated as 460/230.

"Does that mean I can safely and adequately operate from 230 by doing nothing?"

The name plate indicates that the motor is *capable* of being safely operated on 230 or 460 volts, at full rated HP, *if* properly connected.

The name plate should also have a connection diagram for all possible connections.

If the motor is single speed, dual voltage, then there are usually nine wires brough out to the motor's connection box.

If the motor is dual speed, dual voltage, then there are usually eighteen wires bought out.

If the motor is connected for 460 volts, but it is operated on 230 volts, the most likely outcome will be an overheated and burned out motor.

Induction motors are designed to operate on +/- 5 percent of the name plate rating, and they will tend to overheat when operated on low voltage, say more than 5 percent below name plate.

In contrast, induction motors do not tend to overheat when operated somewhat above name plate voltage.

Which is why some motors are rated as 208-240/440-480 volts or 200-240/440-480.

Meaning, in the former case, that 208, 220, 230, 240, 440, 460 and 480 are all OK, when the motor is properly wired for low voltage range or high voltage range, respectively.

200 volts is usually used only in Japan, which uses 100 volts for single-phase and 200 volts for three-phase.

The 200 volt name plate rating is probably provided for the case where a machine is to be shipped to Japan.

Of course, a "JIC" type motor starter would be substituted for the normal "NEMA" type motor starter, in this specific case.

Some manufacturers have special 200 volt only models because of the requriement for the special starter. And in this case the motors may be special 200 volt only models.

However, the Hardinge motor is specially balanced, and I'd guess that both GE and Hardinge would want to minimize the number of specials.

mmambro:
You are welcome.... It is always nice when one thread ends up helping multiple people! Anyhow, I guess now I've got to do a little work. First I must sell my 10EE and then find an HLV-H to buy (edited: a *reasonably priced* one! There are plenty for sale, but not that many that really seem to sell, if you know what I mean! ). Some might say that is a stupid move while others will say it is the way to go. I'm not positive either way, and in the end I may still have the 10EE! Only time will tell.

[This message has been edited by wrench (edited 10-24-2003).]

The feeling I'm getting from Alan and Mike is that they might need some on-site support. This is not a criticism - it's simply an area where they appear to have marginal training, and in my experience the internet is not a good training forum for a complex subject like this. The internet is great for tweaking an already established knowledge base. However, it's really difficult to answer their questions without writing a tome on the subject to provide basic background. After rereading their questions, my suggestion is to find mutual friends who understand the basics of control schematics and have them check out the wiring before hooking anything to power.

Data points for such a friend: a transformer, if you use a single phase unit to boost for a 440-480v VFD, is a common item on ebay - use "(440,460,480) transformer" as a search criterion. There's one now - 2567629944 - at $10. If you want a 3 phase unit they have those there as well. You should be looking for a 1-3KVA unit for a Hardinge lathe. Any more is overkill unless you get it for a song.

The contactor heater values from the Hardinge diagram in my own HLV-H control panel pocket are as follows:
Spindle 440v 2.2A
Spindle 220v --- (this is a 440v only motor)
Coolant pump 440v .36A
Coolant pump 220v .54A
Speed change 440v .36A
Speed change 220v .54A

Good luck,
Mike

AAFRadio:
Actually I am more than comfortable (and qualified) to work on the electrics/electronics of the machine. Not *owning* one, however, really was the root of my question. I have never played with an HLV-H, and hence wasn't sure what a conversion from a 440 to 220 entailed. To that end, this thread has been quite satisfactory for me.
--Alan

No criticism intended, Alan - just reading the narratives made me wonder about the knowledge level...like I said, the internet is a questionable place for communicating subtleties. If you want a .gif file of the wiring diagram, I'd be glad to mail it to you.

p.s. Why on earth would you want to get rid of a 10EE for a Hardinge when you can have *both*? <big grin>

Best,
Mike