Legalities of transporting out-of-state O/A bottles

chadillac · Dec 6, 2005

I see a lot of discussion on this forum of what type of gas bottles to get, whether to rent or buy, issues a person has had exchanging their bottles, etc.

I may have the opportunity to purchase an O/A welder at the same place I pick up my mill and lathe that an older lady is getting rid of after her husband passed away about 10 years ago.

The prospect of getting not only the torch and hose, but also the acetylene and oxygen bottles at an excellent price is very attractive. I've purchased a bottle of tri-mix for my mig welder, and the deposit on the bottle was over $100 at the local welding supply store I go to (Praxair). From now on, I just exchange it for about $30-40 IIRC. I think it was a ~70 cu ft bottle, stands about 4 ft tall.

Obviously I would intend to finish up these bottles and then exchange them, at which point I may run into problems according to what I've heard from others about transporting bottles across state lines. Are there any laws about transporting gas bottles across state lines or just that the welding supply store may not exchange the bottles. I would at least get a receipt from the current owner saying that I had purchased the welder and gas bottles from them, if that would help at all.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

Chad

Dave Haven · Dec 6, 2005

I'm not aware of any laws against transporting them across state lines.
I bought my late uncle's work truck from my cousin last year. It has an Oxy/Acetylene rig on it.
The truck was in California; I drove it to its new home in Arizona. The Acetylene bottle was empty, so I took it to AirGas. They exchanged it, even though it was a different style bottle than the ones they carry. No problems.

snowman · Dec 6, 2005

Judging by the time her husband passed, you will probably have to pay 15 dollars for a tank test...but other than that, they should just exchange them like any other tank.

You can order tanks from McMaster Carr or MSC Industrial.

-Jacob

Warren · Dec 6, 2005

I cross state line all the time with my welding truck. No problems.

A few safty rules apply. Ensure that saftey caps are in place when transporting. Some acytelene cylinders had a built in protector (Linde type)

transport acytelene in an upright position if possible.

Keep secured from rolling around.

Thats about all there is too it. You will have to see what your local suppliers rules are on customer owned cylinders. But getting them filled should not be a problem.

If you are hauling commercial quantities i.e. over 1000 lbs, than you have to have truck placarded & paperwork etc... you will not have to worry about that.

chadillac · Dec 6, 2005

Thanks for info. I'll be sure to transport them with the cylinders secured in the upright position.

Chad

wrench · Dec 6, 2005

IIRC, you can transport them in the horizontal position, but you must let them stand for "awhile" before you use them. In my parlance, that is a few days. But I'm just a hobbiest and not a very good welder! I'd confirm this with more knowledgeable sources if you plan on transporting them horizontally.

--Alan

Warren · Dec 6, 2005

Laying down an oxygen cylinder is Ok. it is compressed gas. Acytelene is not per say. it is mixed with acetone to stabilize it. The inside of the cylinder has a porus foam in there that soaks up the liquid. If the bottle is turned on it's side the contents tend to seperate. A day or so in the upright position will restore the mixture to a safe usable state. While it is contained in the bottle it is OK. It has something to do with what happens when the gas is drawn from the cylinder. This is a pretty simplified explanation I know. If you insist I'll pull out my hand books & get the official description of how acytelene cylinders work.

FYI..Another thing some of you may not know is: Acytelene becomes unstable above 15 PSIG. that is why the gauge has a big red no go zone after 15 Lbs.

chadillac · Dec 7, 2005

Warren,

I was aware of the Acetylene being unstable above 15 psi, but I was under the impression that is the case IF the acetone has NOT been mixed in with it. I thought that was a fundamental reason for mixing with acetone -- to enhance the stability at pressures higher than 15 psi. So acetylene bottles pressure relief valves are set at or around 15 psi?

On a side note, I finally enrolled myself in an oxy-acetylene welding class starting in January so I can learn how to actually WELD. I have a little lincoln 175 mig welder with a bottle of tri-mix (why call it tri-mix if only CO2 and AR are involved?) that I use to stick pieces of metal together, but would I call it welding; I'm not so sure. It's fun to use though!

Chad

snowman · Dec 7, 2005

Chad,

Tri mix should have helium in it.

What you have sounds more like what I call 75/25

75% CO2 25% Ar

If you actually bought trimix, you dont need to. It welds a little hotter. I use it mostly for stainless.

-Jacob

david routhier · Dec 7, 2005

Chad,
The acetone and acetylene aren't mixed. The acetylene is dissolved in the acetone. Subtle difference that allows a couple hundred PSI in the tank. The acetylene will only decompose at +15PSI in a gaseous form. Kinda makes you wonder why it doesn't explode between the valve and the regulator

I believe that the issue with horizontal storage is the liquid acetone travels to the neck of the bottle and can be withdrawn from the tank. Not dangerous but bad for the equipment. A few hours of settling should take care of it.

chadillac · Dec 7, 2005

Chad,

Tri mix should have helium in it.

What you have sounds more like what I call 75/25

75% CO2 25% Ar

If you actually bought trimix, you dont need to. It welds a little hotter. I use it mostly for stainless.

Good thing I'll be learning a little more about welding eh?

Yes, I have the 75/25. For some reason, I recall the guy at the welding store asking if I wanted tri-mix and I thought he made an analogy to the 75/25 that I had requested, but in retrospect, he may have been suggesting it as an additional option. My mistake.

Chad

wrench · Dec 7, 2005

Chad/David,
Exactly as I recall from reading in my books. You don't want the acetone to get into your regulator, which is also one of the reasons you don't run your acetylene tank empty, by the way. This is why you need to keep it upright (and why you need to keep it that way for awhile after moving it horizontally).

The main thing, as I recall, on the 15PSI thing is that above that the acetone will start to come out too. As mentioned above, that is very bad for the regulator. I also vaguely recall that there is some explosion hazard too... The bottom line is, however, it is just plain bad!!! Keep it below 15PSI.

If you are interested in this topic, I'm sure it is all over the net. I know it is in each welding book I've picked up, and certainly a local welding shop will answer the questions. I'd trust them more than me too! I openly state (disclaimer) that I am a rank novice welder. My welds look like a chicken had diarriha! They are pathetic!

But, hey, I have fun!

--Alan

Jeremy · Dec 13, 2005

Equipment isn't necessarily harmed by acetone, but it does cause erratic torch operation.

Acetylene is disolved in acetone (which can absorb a lot of the gas) which is then stored in a cylinder with a porous filler to pressures up to 250psi. If an acetylene molecule in one pore of the filler were to break down from a shock or other cause, the filler absorbs the energy and keeps it from spreading to other acetylene molecules.

Mel · Dec 13, 2005

Ox and acetylene should never be transported laying down(DOT) Should never let the act. tank go below 15lbs it becomes unstable. After laying down stand it up for a half hour for the gase to separate. And of course evevery one knows never use oil around Ox. Mel

gbent · Dec 13, 2005

I used to use a gas supplier that furnished aluminum O2 bottles. When that supplier went out of business, my new supplier (Linweld) didn't carry aluminum bottles because the aluminum ones weren't legal in all states.

Kent David Redd · Dec 15, 2005

This is almost a topic I have wondered about for some time. Years ago dealing with a industrial gas supplier was worse than going to the denist, if there is such a thing. First you could only lease O/A bottles.With the lease bottle you could not afford to have a cutting torch on the farm. Then came along the 10 year lease. This helped some. Then the 10 year lease became a lifetime lease. Now they sell the bottles.
What made the industrial gas suppliers more customer friendly? I have heard a rumor that at one time there was a Federal law against private ownership of the O/A bottles. Is this true?

Kent

Mel · Dec 15, 2005

I always thought the privet bottels were done becouse of the market the smaller guy that could or would not pay the demerage sp? fee. Mel

Access Db Guy · Dec 16, 2005

Having been in the medical supply business may I offer a comment about those cylinders?

You indicate that they belonged to a lady who has had them at least 10 years... more, if her husband had them for any length of time.

Stamped into the metal around the crown are various dates - "Hydrostatic Test" dates. Depending on the gas and what the cylinder is constructed of, you may not wish to depend on them. In the case of non-steel cylinders the hydrostatic test dates are often on the label and not stamped into the cylinder.

Your local refill shop can tell you, for a particular gas and cylinder type, how often they MUST be hydrostatically tested. If "out of date" too long, some places might not accept them.

The U.S. Navy says... "Fiberglass composite wrapped cylinders are to be hydrostatically tested every three years and disposed of after 15 years."

The U.S. Department of Transportation has a web site that lists, by state, places certified to re-test cylinders. Here: DoT Cylinder Testing Sites

When I bought medical oxygen (in various sized cylinders) we often rejected receipt of some cylinders as they were shipped to us by vendors with expired test dates, sometimes expired as much as 7 years even though the cylinder looked brand new, and even though our purchase order (DD-1155 or BPA) mandated an unexpired period remaining of at least two years as of date of receipt.

Although I don't know how to weld (yet...), you can be sure that when I get cylinders their hydrostatic test date will not be expired.

I hope this is of some use to you.

Regards,
Stan

chadillac · Dec 19, 2005

Thanks for the responses. One final question:

Suppose that I were to get the torch and bottles. Now suppose that the bottles were expired and of no use or otherwise un-fit to be accepted as a trade-in. Where do you get rid of these "junk" bottles? I presume it is NOT OK to drop them at the local landfill. Or is it SOP for the welding supply store to dispose of them for you, while simply not honoring them as trade-in bottles?

The way my current welding supply store is set up, I pay a hefty deposit on the bottles ($100+), but the gas isn't too expensive. What I'm hoping for is to get the bottles, pay the ($15?) fee to have them hydrostatically tested, then be able to use them and trade in as needed, avoiding the damn bottle deposit. It's beginning to sound more and more like a "policy" question that should simply be answered by my welding supply store. I'll call them and ask this question.

Chad

Access Db Guy · Dec 19, 2005

Chad,

Sorry, I don't know how you get rid of them (damaged or outdated gas cylinders) in your local area. Back before I retired from the Navy, when I had a cylinder that I thought was damaged (like crossed threads for the safety cap, bad dents, etc.) we would let the gas out using a standard valve, until the cylinder was fully equalized with ambient air. Then I'd have my medical repair guys cut three 2" holes in the side of the tank before we turned them in for disposal as metal scrap.

We did NOT want some amateur skin diver thinking they had found an excellent, very large source for underwater air.

Check with your local medical gas suppliers (see the Yellow Pages) and ask what they do with damaged, outdated cylinders. That should give you a good start.

By the way... if the gas company provides the cylinder the "rental" of the cylinder is technically known as demurrage. The same term applies to the cost of having a “foreign” road’s box car on your railroad. So if you decided not to own the cylinders watch out for these charges. Then can sometimes accumulate to large amounts.

Stan

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