Building costs estimate for new shop ?

I think I've posted something like this months before but I probably wasn't specific enough. Anyway, I have a chance to sell my 16,500 sq foot complex for way more than what I paid for it two years ago and have been agonizing as to whether to go thru with it or not.

This place is wonderful in many ways, 1997 construction so still pretty much like new, zero leaks, 22 foot eave height, loading dock height floor with dock, 480 volts 3 phase, etc.

But it's over 30 miles from the house and the travel to and fro is getting a bit old. The county this is in is still a bit depressed, so I doubt much appreciation in the future. Also property taxes are outrageous. Would be thousands less in Beaufort county even if building appraised at twice as much as here.

So, I should probably sell it and build something much closer to home, but part of the decision is just what could I build with the money I will get from this sale. (and FWIW, finding a suitable existing building in Beaufort, SC is flat zero possiblity...well ok, under 30,000 sq ft and for less than a million bucks anyway)

As such, anyone have any WAG on the following-

*80 x 120 foot (9600 sq ft) metal building with appropriate concrete floor thickness for up to 30,000 lb forklift traffic (forklift weight not capacity)
*22 foot eaves height
*1,000 sq foot offices and bathrooms (seperate men and women, 1 toilet/sink each)
*Loading dock (dug out type) with 12 x 12 rollup door
*Ground level rollup door 14 x 14
*3,000 sq foot interior space via seperate wall
*Office and 3,000 sq ft space full HVAC
*600 amp 3 phase
*20,000 sq feet of asphalt paving

I'm sure I'm leaving out something..if so, point it out. And of course the WAG would be exclusive of the land. And it varies by locale, permits, etc..but that's why I said WAG. Thoughts ?

(and before anyone says "talk to a contractor"...I can't get a straight answer out of any of them without actual plans. Plus I can't trust their guesses as they tend to guess on the optomistic side just to get the business...I need worse case senario)

Before you do anything talk to your CPA about a 1031 exchange.. also known as a Starker Exchange

If he does not know a LOT about them, ask another CPA

For office space, figure about $100-$125 per sq ft of floor area.

For warehouse/industrial space, I'd figure about $150-$200 per sq ft.

Parking surface will cost you about $25-$35 per sq yd for asphalt, slightly more for concrete.

Those are costs for the middle of MO, so check your cost of living versus ours and multiply accordingly.

That'll get you into the ballpark, some things you will do cheaper, some may be more expensive.

Those 22 ft eaves will run your building and erection costs up some, as well as the hell for stout floor and below grade dock, but you'll save by not having to buy HVAC for the whole area.

When it comes time to talk to contractors, make sure they bid you a standing seam roofing system, and at least 6" of insulation in the roof. If the heating/cooling costs are very high up there, you might look into a simple saver type system with two layers of insulation in the roof for the heated/cooled area. Those systems will add to the upfront and erection costs, but will pay for themselves on the back end if you plan to hold onto the building for very long.

Re Starker, yeah that's another cringer...the taxes on potential capital gains. The time deadlines would be tough to meet-

http://biztaxlaw.about.com/od/1031exchanges/a/1031starker.htm

I could buy land within the deadlines, but might be a year before the building is complete the way things are in Beaufort county.

For warehouse/industrial space, I'd figure about $150-$200 per sq ft.

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Say what ??

The electrical and structural requirements for what we would call industrial uses usually far exceed what we would use for commercial buildings by enough to justify the additional money.

The concrete work is much heavier duty, as well as the associated sub-grade work. That dock will add significantly to the cost of the concrete work. The electrical system is at least three times the size of what you'd see in all but a restaurant situation. The plumbing system will be at least as large as commercial, but in some cases will be more complex with air lines and multiple water and drain runs, as well as a sump and drain system for the below grade dock. Also have to add in a dock leveler of sufficient capacity too.

I'm talking total turn key finished costs here. Clearing the ground, rough and finish grading, concrete work, building erection and finishing, everything. Walk in and turn over the "Open" sign. These estimates are current from projects we've done in the last few years in what I would call "challenging" terrain, you can use the low end of the estimates if your ground is dead flat and grass covered to start with (and it conceals no bedrock less than 6' deep). Any way you slice it, it just costs a ton of money to do anything anymore.

It sucks, I know, but that's how the cookie crumbles.

600 amp 3 phase = a lot of power

How did you calculate that?

Mark

I would have to know what size building I wanted first, say 50 x 100 works. Well then get a quote on that building, give the contractor a basic plan.
Ok, will take $220,000 to build it. Subract from sale of owned property. Seems this simple to me.
Adjust new building size from monies left over or save the money for old age.

Actually that isn't that much power for a building that size. I worked in a shop just under that size and there was 3 power sources totaling 1800 amps. When he sold the building, the new owner had one 480 main brought in so he could run the machines he had already. No telling just how much power that building has in it now.
David from jax

Didn't notice the 600 amp service, very unusual in a small factory, it is usually a special for running machines such as large spotwelders or induction furnaces. Load calculations work on the principle of diversity of load meaning that it is unlikely that more than a small fraction of total load will be applied at any given instant. A place I worked at with 200 employees 3 200 ton presses, 20 or so mechanical presses, a toolroom with 10 toolmakers 3 large spot welders ran off a 500Kva supply.

For warehouse/industrial space, I'd figure about $150-$200 per sq ft.

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Huh ?

CoolHand, that does seem way high !
Here in the northeast things are expensive.
I've been asking around about a similar but smaller setup than Milacron is talking about and it is not even close to that.
What gives ?
SM

A friend put up a similiar shop in central Nebraska this spring. 80x100 shop with attached 40x40 office space. $370,000 for all but the office painting. This was building only, no site prep or outside parking.

Building only had 16' eave height, and probably 200A service. Floor was probably 6", you want 8-10.

I had a 1500 amp welding bus arc phase-to-phase one night....probably ferrous welding dust built up inside the dust cover.

I thought someone shot off a cannon inside the plant

Sorry, the above doesn't really help. I had heard that a steel building (the building alone mind you, no concrete, no installation, just the purchase of the sheeting, trusses, purlins and girts, etc from the fabricator) was around $10-15/sq. ft.

Coolhand, what I was getting at is I presume you added an extra zero. At $200 a square foot you are talking 2 million dollars for 10,000 sq ft. For that sort of money one could build a miniture Taj Mahal.

We just built a 50,000 sq ft retail center in southern MO where we had a lot of rock to move, a section of street to build, and a fairly large parking lot to pave. We're into it for ~$7M. That's ~$140 a sq ft for light duty retail. Industrial buildings are less refined as far as finish goes, but much more robust as far as design loads go.

That building has a 4" slab, but Milacron's will need a minimum of 6", maybe 8" (I'd have to run the calculations to be sure, and this is just a quick-n-dirty estimate anyway) to carry the loads he's after. That adds cost, more now than it used to. Same with the dock, lots of labor and material goes into a dock structure, and depending on what kind of a leveler he chooses, even more cash for that device (and more labor if it's complex and must be integrated into the foundations). The commercial buildings usually have many (say 6-10) 200 amp panels. This is MUCH cheaper than one 600-1000 amp panel and disconnect set-up. That switchgear is very high dollar, and so is the entry wire to serve it. The plumbing will be either just the same or more complex than the commercial structure. About the only thing you will save money on is the HVAC system, because you're only conditioning a third of the overall space.

You asked for a ballpark estimate, which I provided. Our average cost to build retail space is ~$100/sq ft if the building is in the 15k-50k sq ft range, and the site is not horrible to start with. More if the site sucks or the building is small, less if the site is perfect or the building is huge. Industrial buildings will be ~40%-60% more expensive than commercial structures, on average, in my experience.

Perhaps the disparity is coming from my taking total cost of the project and breaking it down to a per sq ft price. That is a true measure of cost, and it is pretty reliable.

EDIT: That $7M includes the price of the land we started on. I missed the "exclusive" in your initial post. That would set this project at ~$100/sq ft, but it was on bad ground (rock), and we had other infrastructure to build. So call it ~$70/sq ft average for retail and ~$110/sq ft for industrial based off that project's ground cost (about average, or a little above). You've also got to realize that costs per sq ft go up as the buildings get smaller. It costs more to build a small building than a very large one, it's one of those constants of life. The break over seems to be in the 15k-20k sq ft range. Much below that and the price per goes up pretty fast, above that the price per goes down steadily but slowly.

You asked for experience and estimates. I've given what of each I have. Sorry that you don't like the answer you got. Sometimes that happens.

EDIT #2: It occurs to me that maybe you're willing to cut corners. The prices above are for nice buildings. I'd be proud to own any one of them. You can save money by using cheap fixtures and a cheap building (like one of those building in a box .com deals), and get monkeys to do the work for you. If you go that route, you can build for quite a lot less money, but it's been my experience that what you'll end the day with, is a cheap basket case, which you wish you had not cut so many corners on.

Sure, I'd imagine you could slap up a building for $40/sq ft and call it good, but I'd also imagine you'd be sorely disappointed in what you ended up with for your money.

You asked for experience and estimates. I've given what of each I have. Sorry that you don't like the answer you got. Sometimes that happens.

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I don't like it because it's bogus info. There is no freakin way a 10,000 sq foot building like I describe could cost 2 million bucks.

Friend of mine has a 10,000 sq ft building that was built about 8 years ago, is nearly identical to what I describe, but actually way nicer, including two stories of office space*, entire building with HVAC, thick epoxied floors, 12 rollup doors (yes, 12 !), etc. and he had aprox $685,000 in the building and asphalt (here again, aprox 20K sq ft of asphalt). The only area where it's not as nice would be the power...he has standard 3 phase amperage suitable for an auto repair facility...whatever that is.

And he used one of the most expensive contractors around here to build it too. So, I have right there one cost comparison, but the figures are muddled by the fact that his building is so much nicer, with way more office space (and fancy office space too..with kitchen and showers...liveable situation) and the passage of time....steel prices are up since then...but how much up ?

I built the below 5,500 sq ft building (1,500 office/4,000 shop) about 12 years ago for $225,000 building cost (incl asphalt paving) Similar specs to what I describe except smaller of course and 200 amp 3 phase, but entire building HVAC and split face block and stucco exterior, 8 foot block all around. For that one I used a "cheap" contractor, so the "expensive" contractor that built my friend's building wanted $285,000 as I recall.



The building I own now (pix below) is 15,000 sq ft plus 1,500 sq foot seperate office building and in 1997 they had aprox $550,000 in the project sans land, complete with way more asphalt paving than I'm talking about doing.



So, I have some good cost comparisons from my own experience, but the huge unknown to me is how much have costs gone up in the last 8 to 12 years ?

*So really he has about 12,000+ sq ft considering that second floor of office space.

To compare then verses now, I poured 34 yards of concrete in 01 at $56. a yard with fiber, now it is around $105. a yard. IIRC even gas has doubled in the past 8-10 years too.
I have some serious masonry contractor customers ( Courthouses, Med Centers, Civic Centers, Large Industrial Complex's, Multi-unit Condos) and they tell me when quoting on projects the material cost has become so unstable that they can only guarranty estimates for 30 days.
It has been so crazy here that if you wanted less than a full truck load of concrete they would put you on a waiting list and you would get it when they had time to mess with it!
I would look for a new building simular to what I'm after and ask what it cost or check tax rolls to see it's value.

FWIW, prices are ranging $30-35.00 per sq ft. on a building addition we are looking at. That was no HVAC or electrical, add probably another $5-10.00 per sw. ft for that. We quoted a 75 x 100, 24 foot eaves, 1 14 x 14 ground level door ( docks in existing building already)with plans on putting in about a 3000 sq. ft office 2 levels tall on one end of the new building. I know one quote was above $350k... the rest are coming in but $30-35 is pretty generic around here for steel frame, insulated, and the type of floor you are after. My existng building has 8" of crete, bar spaced about every foot, and my heaviest machine was a Cincinnati Gilbert 3-1/2T that probably weighs somewhere around 40k. The compaction under the pad will be critical to longevity. The gilbert did not crack the building floor but the driveway outside got broke into about a dozen pieces. I believe it was compaction that was the difference.

I do not believe I could build in my area for the prices Wille quoted. But he is close.

It's though to give a number without going through the whole estimation process. I do not believe in giving optimistic prices to get a job and have probably lost a few because of this.

With the extra expense for the floor, electrical, docks I believe it could easily hit $50-60 per foot. The paving varies by area also, but 2.25-2.50 per foot should be close for 2" thick, depending how far the asphalt and rock plants are. You may want to consider thicker. What you save on concrete and rebar under the office will offset some of the office costs. If not all of it.

Just like machine tools, location is a major key. I am in escrow on a 20K square foot facility at 140 a square foot. This is a smoking deal since everyone else in the area is 190 per square foot. No problems with the building, seller needs a very long escrow. has 1000 amps 220V 3 phase, 2 overhead doors and also 41 parking spaces, which is a big deal here.

Building location is in Los Angeles area. I have seen upwards of $225 per square foot for new builds.