DMU Gildemeister Mill

I am interested in a very expensive mill, a DMG 50 eloLinear. I have also looked ad a HAAS "moldmaker" VF2. My question is, how different are the two machines? One is new upwards of 300K, the other is 85K with similar options. The German mill is simultaneous 5 axis, has linear motion drives and direct read out glass DRO, it's spindle is 24K and runs on the Heidenhain i530 controls, it has most options like through spindle cooling, look ahaead software, and an integral NC rotary swivel table. An equivalent 5 axis HAAS is still only 100K with a trunion table and 18k spindle, relativly similar work size etc.

Where does the 3x cost factor come from? Are linear motion drives instead of ball screws worth that much?

If they really are two diferent machines, and the DMG is worth the expense in peoples minds, who uses this class of mill, what parts necesitate this quality over the HAAS?

For the price of the DMG, you could but the HAAS, throw in a well oufitted HAAS lathe and keep 100K for your pocket. Nevertheless, the DMG draws me in, am I crazy?

If you want unbelievable accuracy and lightning speeds get the DMU. Otherwise get the Haas. Thats my 2 cents.

There's definitely a charm to German machine tools, I definitely got that bug...BUT, with the 40% markup because of the weak Dollar, they just make them a fantasy. Plus, their commodity line of VMC's and lathe's are made by Famot in Poland That sort of kills the German mystique for the type of machine I'd be interested in.

For pretty cool 5-axis stuff, those Matsuura vids on YouTube are mightly impressive.

"how different are the two machines?" Night and day!

"An equivalent 5 axis HAAS " There is no equivelent Haas! and anything that is remotely close is more than $100K!!

"what parts necesitate this quality over the HAAS? " high dollar, money making parts!

"For the price of the DMG, you could buy the HAAS, throw in a well oufitted HAAS lathe and keep 100K for your pocket." Well using that logic, you can buy a bridgeport clone and keep $290K in your pocket and retire!!

"Plus, their commodity line of VMC's and lathe's are made by Famot in Poland " Doesn't matter where it's made, just how well its made. In the simplest terms, it's a tool thats designed to make money nothing less and nothing more.

Dmu

Appliedproto,the Dmu is not a commodity machine. It is not made in Famot.

nomgis said:

Appliedproto,the Dmu is not a commodity machine. It is not made in Famot.

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I know that the DMU's are not commodity machines, I was stating that the type of machine that would suite "my" needs are a commodity VMC...and DMG's line are made by Famot in Poland, but still command a German price tag.

They are probably very well built. But in the same vein, Starrett has alot of tools that are made in China that are probably better than the typical home-grown Chinese manufacturer....but does anyone want those Starrett tools though (?)

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"how different are the two machines?" Night and day!

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Are you saying one is white and the other is silver or black? Just what exactly is the REAL differnce?

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"An equivalent 5 axis HAAS " There is no equivelent Haas! and anything that is remotely close is more than $100K!!
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A duck is a duck, regardless wether it's a fresh young one or an old fart. One of them will certainly outrun the other, but they're both ducks nonetheless. And yes, a VTR5 is $99,990.

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"what parts necesitate this quality over the HAAS? " high dollar, money making parts!
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SO with the Haas you'll be making cheap parts at a loss?

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"For the price of the DMG, you could buy the HAAS, throw in a well oufitted HAAS lathe and keep 100K for your pocket." Well using that logic, you can buy a bridgeport clone and keep $290K in your pocket and retire!!
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For that matter don't even bother with the Bridgeport, just retire. So you cannot make 5 axis parts on the Haas?
What if he needs a well outfitted lathe too? Should another $200K be sufficient enough to have both?

Look. I'm not saying that the Haas is better or going to make better parts, but depending on your needs $200K is $200K no matter how you slice it. Do you have a tight enough requirement where the Haas just won't do, or are you willing to spend 3X with the hopes that there will be something later on? What happened to reasonable purchasing decision? If you're making forging dies for a living, then that DMU is an overkill. For some fancy medical or other high tech exotic stuff on the daily basis the DMU is the ticket. Anything in between must be a decision made my common sense.

As for them making the commodity stuff in Poland, I'd say kudos for the Germans for not going to China. Poland may not be the sexiest place that comes to mind, but there are definiately some really good products made there, many of their own design. That also includes some of the other ex-eastern block countries. Any of them would beat the Chinese crap hands down.

Even cutting toys that were comming outta Poland 15 yrs ago were of very good quality. I had better luck with some of that stuff than local - as much as I hate to admit it.

The "Euroturn" and the "Wickman" are both built in the Eastern Bloc too.

I would have to agree that I would much rather have one outta the Eastern Bloc than Asia.

BTW - If you hafta ask if the diff is werth it - you can likely go fetch the HAAS.

I would rather find out that my $100K aint quite up to the task and resell it for a $20-$25K loss and then buy the $300K machine, than to buy the $300K machine and think that it is way overkill for your needs and you could'a built a house with the extree funds.

SeymourDumore said:

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As for them making the commodity stuff in Poland, I'd say kudos for the Germans for not going to China. Poland may not be the sexiest place that comes to mind, but there are definiately some really good products made there, many of their own design. That also includes some of the other ex-eastern block countries. Any of them would beat the Chinese crap hands down.

Click to expand...

Then kudo's for GM, Ford, Chrysler and others for moving their plants to Mexico!

Applied

You care to elaborate on that?
My point was that DMG wanted to cut some of the costs involved, either for profits or for the ability to compete. They've likely done so in Poland without sacrificing quality.
I truly have 0 faith in anything from China, which is the popular destination for outsourcing nowadays.
Curious though if the DMG-s sold in Germany are made in Poland as well? Hurtco calls themselfs an American company, but ALL of their stuff is made somewhere else, even for the US market. In my book that doesn't say much for an American company.
Hardinge at least brought some of their higher end machines back.

As for the Mexico thing, this should really belong in the other forum, but if that GM plant saves 1000 mexicans from jumping the fences, well at least it had done some good.

Seymour,

It's true, it's just the fact of life now. But my tiff is that they are made in Poland (and they are probably built very nicely), but they're sold with a German price tag. Now, my very limited understanding is that East Germany's still not in great shape nearly 20 years after the fall of the Wall. So, I would figure they do have a homeland resource of semi-reasonable labor. Though, it might not be that simple. DMG does have Chinese factory(s)...but they might only be for the Chinese market. But that will probably bleed over...

People would be yammering if Haas moved some facilities to Mexico and there's no reflection of the savings in their price tag. Same crap when the Big3 moved their facilities south....did their cars get any cheaper? Or when Levi Strauss moved all their facilities out of the States....did jeans get any cheaper?

End of rant...get a Mazak

I guess I'd have to agree with that.
Outsourcing is a fact of life today, and I would not necessarily have a problem with it as long as the local economy isn't destroyed in the process.
Haaas does employ a decent amount of skilled people here.
Hardinge ditto, and make truly nice quality products.
Too bad the Hurcos and Stanleys of the world do not see it that way.

Not bitchin', just expressing my opinion.

I own and run a DMU 80T, 34 x 24 x 24 travels and weighs over 19,000 lbs., it is not the 5 axis version but still cost twice as much as the same travel equivalent Hass. Run it everyday going on 3 years now with 0 (yes that's zero) service calls or issues. Can hold tenths all day long, glass scales, thermal comp., Heidenhain 530 control, 12,000 rpm., built in infrared Probing. Would I trade it for two or even three Hass machines? No Way!

The difference between a good machine tool and a mediocre machine tool is when you pay the 200k.

On a good machine tool, you pay it up front and have it for 20 years. High accuracy, high repeatability, no quirks, predictable.

On a mediocre machine tool, you pay for over and over in incidentals for as long as you have the miserable thing. Employee time required to work out kinks, scrapped parts because of certain "peculiarities" all cheap machines seem to have, low repeatability/accuracy usually combined with a lot of thermal drift, and on and on. Lots of babysitting.

And the "tenths all day long" comment is really true. We have one old, beat up Mori Seiki SL-35 at work. The damn thing drifts one tenth every 45 minutes to an hour. One tenth. Ask any Mori or similar quality machine owner. Story is the same. All our other, cheaper lathes can't hold +.0000/-.0005" between two parts without producing a pile of scrap in the process and constant operator attention. It's set up well, easy on the setup guy to prove, easy on the operator to run and adjust.

Set up a machine like a Nakamura Tome, Mori Seiki, DMU, et cetera, then go try to set up a machine like a Haas. There is no comparison. A quality machine tool gives you complete, at your fingertips control over your setup and proving process. There's a little more "This program better be right" when you set up a Haas.

You may think "Well, my parts don't warrant that level of machine." It really comes down to business model. You can either save money up front and have tremendous overhead and hidden costs, or spend the money up front and cut ongoing costs to a minimum.

Very well put Toasty. During the ninety's when I ran a much bigger shop I had 4 Fadals running two shifts. I made money with them but there was one problem or another every week with at least one of them along with having to chase tolorances all day. One shop cross town has a couple Hass machines and it seems he also has ongoing small problems and farms out many of his high accuracy jobs to me

Toasty

Here is my take on this. If your machine does not drift more than 1 tenths/45 minutes, and you notice it, then you're machining Aluminum, brass or plastic for a living.
Wether it's my Mori, the Haas SL10 or the Haas VF4, any variation to produce scrap is usually done due to toolwear. Not doing +/-.0001 work, but .0005 overall sometimes, +-.0005 always. In fact I have less variation on the Haas than on the DuraTurn, due to thermal comp (standard) on the Haas.
Yes, I have to babysit .0003 tolerances, but if you're saying that your Mori, Okk or whatever will run stainless, toolsteel or some other non-butter stuff, then you're FOS. Period.
Honestly, have no clue what the service costs are for a Haas, as in 7 years did not need any. Got 4 of them, 7, 5, 4 and 1 year olds.

Don't know what kind of work do you do, but I can guarantee your machine won't make my parts any better than my Haas-s. You may be able to make higher tolerance parts, but my parts won't be better on yours. If the +/-.0005 gets done to +/-.0003 from first to last, then what can your machine offer me for the 200K?

Seymour, I had a die cast alum (yes it was alum) part I machined for HP for a few years. It was a laser mount and had some very tight tolerances +/-.0002 in 4 different areas. The job was a loser to break-even depending who was running it. Every time we would get an order for a couple thousand of these things it tied up a machine for a little more than two weeks and it seemed every time we tore it down another order would come. I had a small DMU 50T machine that I had recently bought mostly as a toy for myself and had not gotten around to using (I was busy running the shop). One day I decided to spend the time and learn the control and move the castings to this machine so it could be left set-up. After a couple days I could not believe it, the parts were coming off so consistent I was able to reduce the CMM time from checking parts every 4th set (16 parts) and making adjustments to just checking the first run of parts at the beginning of each shift and twice more during just to make sure we weren't losing an insert edge. There was absolutely no more than .0001 to .0002 Z axis variation all day. I was sold at this point. I was able to put a low skilled operator on the job and free up a skilled man that had to run the job prior. I liked those castings from that point on

For anyone wants to run with a "babysit the machine, who cares how long it takes" business model, then there's no advantage to running an expensive machine and never will be. Plenty of shops run that way, and have for ages. It doesn't offer long term security, either financially or in capacity, but it works.

However, the growing trend in the US is running higher capacity operations without more manpower or investing more time in order to remain competitive with overseas manufacturing. Using high quality machine tools is one facet and first step in doing that. High capacity/accurate workholding and automation are the next steps, even for custom/prototype job shops. Not a lot of places go back to buying Haas or the like after they've got a couple high end machining centers and good workholding. They're making the same number of parts with fewer machines, in less time, and with fewer operators. They get the investments paid off in a shorter amount of time, and with a larger profit per-part with rising materials and operating costs.

The cost savings are there, but most people just don't want to look past "This machine makes the same parts, and is 100k less." But the comment I keep hearing from shop owners who take the plunge is, "I can't believe I was running the old way." It works, or there wouldn't be shops with two or three guys managing to keep eight or more machines running lights out, with custom parts mixed in with production jobs.

To me, the inexpensive vs. expensive machine debate is a direct parallel to the Chineese import vs. American iron debate. Of course a Haas can make the same parts as a Mori, just like anyone can make the same part on a 3-in-1 machine. The catch is that the Mori is going to make them faster, with better surface finishes, and less statistical downtime. And the more money you put into that Mori, the more parts you are going to get out of it per time.

Is the high end machine going to reach it's full potential by itself? No. Nothing works in isolation.

Seymourdumore you said
"Are you saying one is white and the other is silver or black?" and "A duck is a duck, regardless wether it's a fresh young one or an old fart. One of them will certainly outrun the other, but they're both ducks nonetheless. And yes, a VTR5 is $99,990."

I can only assume you have never seen a DMU 50evo because if you have, you would see right away that there is no comparison! But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and give you a few differences.

#1 and the biggest. The DMU is designed as a 5 axis machine whereas the Haas is a 3-axis bedmill with a trunnion mounted on the table.

#2 the largest weight the Haas can handle is 200 pounds, the DMU can handle 440 pounds.

#3 the Haas has a 7500 rpm 20hp spindle standard the DMU has a 18,000 rpm 46hp spindle standard.

#4 the Haas has a rapid feed rate of 710"/min while the DMG has 3100"/min rapid. Also more importantly the DMU can accelarate at 1G the Haas doesn't list accelaration.

#5 the Haas has positioning accuracy of +/-.0002" in a single axis whereas the DMU has positioning accuracy of .0003" in the whole work envelope as measured to the VDI standard which normally is double the JIS standard. So in the JIS standard it would probably be .00015".

this is just the machine. If you want to compare the control thats a whole different issue. Again i will assume you haven't run a I530 on a 5 axis machine.

Heidenhain control can do 3d tool compensation, tool tip management when rotating axes, define tilted work planes using any number of ways, euler angle, vector, spatial, just to name a few.

When I do a price quote for a VF5/40TR it comes up $126K before any options.
So now how does a Haas VF5/40TR compare to a DMU50evo? Please explain the benefits of a Haas...I think there's only one...PRICE!!!

This is just answering the original question of why is it 3x more expensive...If your part doesn't require the day in and day out accuracy on 5 axis work then get the Haas. Again the right tool for the right job!!!

So as you see a Duck is not a duck...a better comparison would be the DMV635 ($71k) with a Haas trunnion mounted on the table.

"then what can your machine offer me for the 200K?" Speed!! more parts per hour = more money