3ea. 4000 tools and straight, concrete staircase with 20 steps

Larry on Lake Superior · Oct 2, 2015

I can save a lot of rent if I can move my shop down the stairs described in the title. The tools are;
16 X 30 P&W Model C lathe-60's vintage
16 X 60 HES Cholet 435 lathe-70's vintage
20 inch G & E shaper-20's or 30's vintage.
At the top of the stairs I can anchor a winch/come-along/block & tackle to either a concrete floor or wall.
On the stairs I was thinking about heavy angle iron(vee side up) or 4-6 inch timbers to form a temporary ramp/slides. I have 2ea. 4 inch square tubes that
are drilled to enable bolting to the machine bases.
To attach the square tubing to the winch(etc.) I was thinking of lifting eyes or chain hooks.
If I attach the winch in this manner do you think the tipping point at the top of the ramp will be a huge problem? I was thinking headstock first down the ramp.
I'll move the shaper first as damaging it isn't a huge loss.
There is plenty of room at the bottom of the stairs.
Has anyone done something similar?
Thanks,
Larry OOPS!! forgot the # sign after 4000 in the title.

Ray Behner · Oct 2, 2015

Seems like it should work, pending a sound staircase. Maybe even put a stiff leg under the center of the stairs. Make sure your winch is controllable.
Back in the dreaded days of plumbing, I had to get 16" high cast iron bath tubs upstairs....alone. I'd carry my Rigid power vise to the second floor and put it behind a stud wall. Clamp a piece of 2" pipe in it and bring it up to the studs. Wrap a rope a few turns around the pipe and winch the tub up a plank. Piece of cake. I controlled the electric with the extension cord stuck in my belt so I could yank out the plug.

true temper · Oct 2, 2015

Ray, I like your way of thinking. My cousin used a ridgid 300 attached to a forklift with a hand chain sprocket in the chuck to pull on a 5 ton chain fall.

tdmidget · Oct 2, 2015

Tell us more about this staircase. How thick, reinforced, etc. A pic maybe? I think it is safe to say it was not designed for a 4000 lb. load.

Larry on Lake Superior · Oct 2, 2015

tdmidget,
The staircase is concrete. The building was, at one time, a print shop and is strongly made. The shortest machine, the shaper, has a 4 ft. long foot print. The lathes are considerably longer. I think the ramp will spread the load over several stairs. I counted the stairs and the actual number was 15. The stairs are slightly steeper than those found in residences. The anchor at the top should share a substantial amount of the load. The stairs are 45 inches wide and tied into an exterior wall on one side and a concrete floor to ceiling stub wall on the other. The underside of the stairs are a flat plane. I will measure stair thickness next week. I dragged an Index Super 55 vertical mill from my basement on wooden stairs built on 2 X 12 stringers. I don't antici-
pate the stairs being a problem.
Thanks to all who replied.
Larry

adama · Oct 3, 2015

Other options, some simple climbing gear and a basic rope descender, They will easily cope with a mass going down a slope like that with ease, hardest parts going onto and off the slope at top and bottom. Just load test you tie in point at the top because it needs to be good for circa half the loads weight minimum!

One thing to watch with the concrete stairs, yeah there almost definatly strong enough, but its real easy to chip the step edges moveing big loads up and down them. Simple fix is a bunch of sutable bits of telegraph post to keep what ever your ramp is up off those delicate edges! Helps spread the load + gives you something to tie onto. One at the top also gives you a nice round edge to pivot the load over, its not my idea, saw a pro rigging crew doing it this way a few years back, they too had a simple angle iron track countersunk screwed to the posts.

Also a good idea, no one at the top - bottom and once the load is on the ramp, your not below it! Even when it gets to the bottom, go walk around what ever other way you have in there, don't squeeze past in-case something shifts and you get pinned there. If you don't have a secound way in - out i would not use the space, could be the final place you ever go if there’s a fire in the building above!

magneticanomaly · Oct 3, 2015

First, and outside the scope of the original question, I would ask if i wanted my shop "down there". Are those stairs the only way back out, or is there nice ground-level access/egress for future moves and acquisitions? Potential water problems down there? Might be a reason the rent is so cheap.

To deal with the initial tipping over the topmost step, I'd have both a low-down anchor at top of stairs to do most of the lowering, and an anchor as high off the floor as possible to control the tip. This is ideally a two-man operation, one giving slack/controlling the descent from the top, the other helping pull from the bottom. Remember apply all your effort on the skids, in the plane where the frictional rersistance is...BTW friction is yoiur friend, which argues for wood skids or a wooden track rather than steel. Make sure your track is wide enough and all your pullling straight, to guard against sideways tipping. Be prepared for the leading ends of your skids "digging in" at the bottom of the stairs. Be sure your skids will not only be strong enough and stay attached when supporting all the weight at their misdles on the top step, and when supporting it all on the ends, when transitioning from the slope to the level at the bottom. That last condition also rquires both skids to be the same length and to begin and end at the same distance ahead of and behind the machine, lest they tip the load when supporting it at their ends

Ray Behner · Oct 3, 2015

magneticanomaly said:
First, and outside the scope of the original question, I would ask if i wanted my shop "down there". Are those stairs the only way back out, or is there nice ground-level access/egress for future moves and acquisitions? Potential water problems down there? Might be a reason the rent is so cheap.

To deal with the initial tipping over the topmost step, I'd have both a low-down anchor at top of stairs to do most of the lowering, and an anchor as high off the floor as possible to control the tip. This is ideally a two-man operation, one giving slack/controlling the descent from the top, the other helping pull from the bottom. Remember apply all your effort on the skids, in the plane where the frictional rersistance is...BTW friction is yoiur friend, which argues for wood skids or a wooden track rather than steel. Make sure your track is wide enough and all your pullling straight, to guard against sideways tipping. Be prepared for the leading ends of your skids "digging in" at the bottom of the stairs. Be sure your skids will not only be strong enough and stay attached when supporting all the weight at their misdles on the top step, and when supporting it all on the ends, when transitioning from the slope to the level at the bottom. That last condition also rquires both skids to be the same length and to begin and end at the same distance ahead of and behind the machine, lest they tip the load when supporting it at their ends

Couldn't have said it better myself. That's exactly the way things work!

Larry on Lake Superior · Oct 3, 2015

Thanks guys,
I think you're right,ie.; about two tie points(1 hi-1 lo) at the top of the stairs, a tie point & come along at the bottom and wooden rails. I can strap the rails together on sides & bottom with pieces of .250 X 3 inch steel. I can bevel the ends of the rails to match the floor top & bottom. I can make right angle brakets to attach the rails to the stairs & floors. I can use lag screws on the wood rails and those blue hardened screws to attach to concrete. Those blue screws are amazingly strong. I have used them to drag this stuff around with a come along on concrete floors.

There's no concern about tipping these large machines as the clearance won't allow it. As long as the machine bases are bolted to the square tubing I think the smaller machines will be okay as well.

I agree that basements aren't ideal. I'll have to run one or two dehumidifiers for much of the year. Superior and Duluth are VERY humid except when it's cold or there's a high pressure system as we're having now. The basement also offers security, privacy and allows for less than perfect dust collection.

Thanks again for all your help.

Larry

Bill D · Nov 25, 2015

I have a link that shows the stair case to point Reyes lighthouse near San Francisco. It has a flat ramp on each side for a wheeled cart to be puleed up and down the straight stairs. I think it is 304 steps.
Bil lD.
Trip Idea: Visit Muir Woods, Point Reyes, Ano Nuevo, and Santa Cruz - Without Baggage

Frederick Harvie · Nov 26, 2015

At the top as others have said two anchor points one high and one low. When a skid is moved on rollers there is a balance point where the machine can easily be balanced on a single roller . Mark this point on the skid. With a little measurement you can arrange the rollers so that the skid reaches the balance point on the roller at the same time as the roller reaches the edge of the stair. It should be fairly easy to then control the tipping of the machine with the winch you have fastened to a high point on the skid.
At the bottom when the leading edge reaches the floor it will be difficult to move it forward because it will be an edge contact and difficult for rollers. If you take a piece of ply wood and place it on rollers at the bottom then the leading edge will contact the plywood which can roll on the rollers. If possible do not extend your ramp on the stairs all the way to the floor so that your plywood on rollers can start up against the bottom riser and the edge contact of the skid will be 8 to 10 inches from the edge of your plywood roller plate

Chip Chester · Nov 26, 2015

I can't tell from the various written descriptions, but is the top of the stairs near an outside wall? If so, you may want to put a conveniently placed hole, or door, for two reasons: One, so you can back a tow truck up to the top of the stairs, and have a real winch controlling descent, and future ascents.

Second: With machines that size, I'm guessing you're not turning out billet toothpicks. What stock sizes will you need to handle? How easy will it be to get them downstairs... and get what you make back up.

When you decide to buy a mill (as one does) it will need to take the same path in and out of the shop.

Got a bathroom down there? Breakroom? Bottled water delivery? Egress-rated window or other exit? If you sprout an employee or two, or an infirmity or two as time goes by, you may find accessibility challenges.

Decent dehumidifiers are expensive to buy and run, and throw off heat that you'll probably need to cool back out of the air. (Just AC might take care of it, but it might also make things cold and clammy instead of just clammy.)

Chip

Richard King · Nov 27, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CAIBFbKzAw

wheels17 · Nov 27, 2015

When I moved my (much lighter) machines down my basement steps, I mounted two pulleys to the kickplate of the top step, one in the middle and one to the side(1/2" eyebolts through the kickplate and a triple 2x12 header). This allowed me to put the winch at the bottom, run the cable up the side, and have control over the machines well before they reached the tipover point onto the stairs. I used a manual worm gear winch so there was no chance of loosing the handle and having it spin out of control.

Didn't like the video at all. Skid WAY too narrow, the scaffolding setup looked sketchy, and they spent way too much time below the load

tdmidget · Nov 27, 2015

Uhhhh NO. That scaffold tube is rated in compression and tension only. That should have been a putlog rated for side pull. Just because they made it does not make it safe.

Illinoyance · Nov 27, 2015

Two major issues:

Unless you can prove the stairs are capable of holding the load assume they are not and provide engineered shoring under the stairs.

Made sure any rigging and anchors used to hold back the load are rated for the load you will apply. No jury rigging. If the load gets loose somebody can be hurt or killed.

surplusjohn · Dec 18, 2015

i would use heavy plywood over the concrete, not steel, the more drag the better. I would have at least two winch points, one low to control the load the other high to stablize the load, both will have to be synconized so they are both under tension and both will have to handle the full load. the start of the descent will have to be controlled so that you are not basically dumping the load over the edge. I have winched things up full stairs,and it is not easy. think of lifting capacity required as if you were hoisting the thing vertically, that is the only safe way to look at this because if the load gets out of control that is what you are dealing with. Even a 100 lb load when falling is more than enough to kill you. ideally you have a winch that is lifting it as if was a vertical lift with the second wince controlling lateral movement. lifting or lowering it doesnt matter, you have pretty much the same load.

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3ea. 4000 tools and straight, concrete staircase with 20 steps

Larry on Lake Superior

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