About to pull trigger on a Hardinge TM Mill

Hi -

New member here.

For some time I've been looking for a Hardinge TM mill to augment my metal fabrication capabilities at home. We have a machine shop at work, and while I've had some basic training I have a lot to learn and am not really in a position to critically assess an old mill.

So I'm basically viewing this as a learning experience, and understand that there is some risk and a fair bit of work/expense involved.

Space is very tight in my home shop, and the Hardinge TM/UM seems to be the best bet in terms of footprint and capabilities. After looking for several months, it seems these are somewhat sought after and there are not many in my area (Montreal, Canada).

Recently, a local unit came up for sale in my city and I'm prepared to go for it.

The description in the advert lists the following features:

• Universal head divider with related discs
• vertical rotary head with attachment collar for endmill up to 3/4 diameter
• 3 speed
• Horizontal shaft included
• 1 hp engine, voltage 220V
• clamp included.

The current owner believes it is wired to run at 110V or 220V. I attached a couple of pictures from the advert, for what it's worth.

I've searched and read various articles in this forum and elsewhere, which have been quite helpful. I'd be grateful for any comments the more knowledgable members can provide on this mill. I may be able to get an experienced machinist from work to come and help assess, but curious what responses I might get here.

I'm not sure I want to get into a discussion of the asking price here, as this depends on the local market. I've been looking at used mills across Canada for several months and the asking price seems within the market range.

Thanks in advance,

D

In general, I find good small mills are harder to find in Canada compared to the US. So, if this is in reasonable condition and the current owner can demonstrate all the functions to you, it is worthwhile. Make sure it can do both vertical and horizontal and all the pieces are there. Also, if you are keeping it for a long time, price is not too big of a concern.
By going to a “name” brand like Hardinge, I'm not sure but some spare parts may still be available, and there is a chance you will find some attachments for it on-line if anything is missing. Does it have any interchangeable parts with Hardinge lathes, like collets for instance? That would be a plus. If I recall correctly, I read somewhere that the elevation screw to raise and lower the table might be lighter-duty that it should be.

Thanks for the suggestions. I guess sometimes a limited choice makes the decision easier!

I am not sure about interchangeability with lathe parts, but will look into it. The owner states that all functions are operational, and I should be going to see it tomorrow and will ask him to demonstrate.

I like the idea of these small horizontal mills (so long as it includes a vertical attachment), as I've seen them used for things like tube notching and basic turning in addition to milling.

I also looked at the used market in Upper NY state and Vermont, but it didn't seem hugely better and the added hassle of cross-border transport is a factor.

Thanks again,

D

That vertical spindle is way different than mine. Maybe Larry Vanice could weigh in on whether that is a problem or a plus. If this one your looking at has a vertical feed on that spindle it would definitely be a plus.
We converted mine to a specialized lever feed and it works great for what we use it for.

Thanks - I've been Googling for a few weeks, and have not found any pics of a similar vertical spindle on a Hardinge. I'm checking it out tomorrow, and should be able to get more info/history. The owner is a very pleasant older gentleman who is not real communicative online.

I don't think I'm in a position to be picky, and it seems there are some original Hardinge vertical spindles for sale in various places.

I'm excited to get moving on this, but do appreciate the feedback just in case there are some glaring red flags.

See if you can get a price reduction if you leave the vertical head out of the deal. Otherwise tell him you'll
come back 'later' to pick that part up. I have a b'port M head for mine and almost never use it. The
M head at least has a quill.

Also see if he still has the two speed, three phase motor that origincally came with this machine. Put
an inexpensive VFD with that and it would be much sweeter.

The machine is a so-called ivory dial version, later than the steel dial ones.

In my case the UM miller was a good fit as my basement shop has limited headroom.

Is it a standard rather than universal (swiveling) table?

The dividing head is a plus, especially if it's the UM type table.

I'm not seeing the horizontal spindles and overarm support. Since these are very nice small horizontal mills, but only so-so vertical mills in my opinion -- if those horizontal spindles and support aren't included it would be a pretty big drawback.

It's also not clear if your unusual vertical head is a fixed, geared, or drill press (quill) type feed. Looks to me like it depends on the table for vertical movements? If so, you'll find lots of times (e.g. drilling, counter-boring) when you wish it had either a quill or spindle feed.

If it's just a home-made right angle adapter and you're looking for a small vertical mill, with a reasonable x,y,z range in a small footprint, one of the unmentionable imports with a DRO might actually serve you better?

FWIW, I've got a proper Hardinge vertical head will all the collets that I'm not using. I suspect there are others around. If the price and condition for this mill is otherwise right, there are probably a number of these to be had.

jim rozen said:

See if you can get a price reduction if you leave the vertical head out of the deal. Otherwise tell him you'll
come back 'later' to pick that part up.

Click to expand...

My sense in talking to the seller is that he wants all parts out of his garage, but is not willing to reduce the price.

I have a b'port M head for mine and almost never use it. The
M head at least has a quill.

Click to expand...

Thanks - most of my experience is on a b'port style machine, so having any kind of vertical head seemed helpful with regards to my comfort zone.

Also see if he still has the two speed, three phase motor that originally came with this machine. Put
an inexpensive VFD with that and it would be much sweeter.

Click to expand...

This is a great suggestion, thanks! I'm fairly sure he has swapped out the motor as he's running it in his residential garage and says it runs 'on 240 or 120V'.

The machine is a so-called ivory dial version, later than the steel dial ones.

Click to expand...

Thanks - I've seen comments to the effect that the ivory dial versions were preferable.

In my case the UM miller was a good fit as my basement shop has limited headroom.

Click to expand...

I've been surprised that often the sellers of used mills are oblivious to these model designations (this seller didn't know what UM and TM meant). I have to assume that this one is a TM, as there's no indication that the table can swivel.

I'll try to take a few pics tomorrow when I check it out - I'm more or less committed, but still very helpful to make a more informed decision and know in advance what I'm getting into!

According to the seller, it is fully functional (for what that's worth).

PeteM said:

Is it a standard rather than universal (swiveling) table?

Click to expand...

I'm assuming it's a standard TM as the owner insists the table does not swivel.

The dividing head is a plus, especially if it's the UM type table.

Click to expand...

I should know better tomorrow if it's a UM.

I'm not seeing the horizontal spindles and overarm support. Since these are very nice small horizontal mills, but only so-so vertical mills in my opinion -- if those horizontal spindles and support aren't included it would be a pretty big drawback.

Click to expand...

The seller claims that it comes with the horizontal gear. Will confirm tomorrow.

It's also not clear if your unusual vertical head is a fixed, geared, or drill press (quill) type feed. Looks to me like it depends on the table for vertical movements? If so, you'll find lots of times (e.g. drilling, counter-boring) when you wish it had either a quill or spindle feed.

Click to expand...

Yes I'd wondered about that - could potentially look for a different head in future, although this could cost significantly more than the mill.

If it's just a home-made right angle adapter and you're looking for a small vertical mill, with a reasonable x,y,z range in a small footprint, one of the unmentionable imports with a DRO might actually serve you better?

Click to expand...

I'd considered this, but after lurking on this site for some months I have drunk too much of the anti-import kool-aid to turn back lol.

FWIW, I've got a proper Hardinge vertical head will all the collets that I'm not using. I suspect there are others around. If the price and condition for this mill is otherwise right, there are probably a number of these to be had.

Click to expand...

That was sort of my thinking - thanks for mentioning it. I may very well contact you once I digest this transaction!

There was a Tom Senior in Toronto recently for a pretty good price... I would have driven to get it, but it sold in a heartbeat. Also I'm pretty sold on the idea of a small horizontal mill with option to run as vertical.

Will try to post more info tomorrow about the vertical head.

Thanks again,

D

FredC said:

That vertical spindle is way different than mine. Maybe Larry Vanice could weigh in on whether that is a problem or a plus. If this one your looking at has a vertical feed on that spindle it would definitely be a plus.
We converted mine to a specialized lever feed and it works great for what we use it for.

Click to expand...

btw I do have a drill press I'm happy with, and although space is tight will be able to fit both. A lever feed on the mill would be amazing, but maybe the drill press can scratch that itch?

Thanks Car2! This is hugely helpful. Agree the pictures are not super high-res.

I have to assume the motor has been changed, as the current owner is running it in his garage and didn't know what a VFD was (from what I can tell he's an old-school retired machinist). There's a bit of a language barrier and I will just have to go and see (above comments very helpful). I asked my machinist friend and he's basically a CNC programmer and not very comfortable in assessing vintage machinery.

As I'd mentioned, I'm assuming the unit in the pictures is a TM. If anyone can indicate the visual cues that would help discriminate, it would helpful.

Thanks again!

Just to confirm others' comments, the vertical head was not made by Hardinge, so I cannot say what tooling it needs to hold end mills or whether it has useful spindle speeds. There is a rack of collets that might be 4C on the left side of the mill. The largest 4C collet is 3/4", in line with the description. The actual Hardinge-made vertical head used 4C collets. There is a cylinder sticking up from the top that might be an indication of having a quill, but it would have to be operated from some exotic device in the overarm housing, because there is no feed control on the left or right side. Note that the knee is all the way down to the bottom of its travel leaving very little room between the vise and the drill chuck for a drill bit. In other words, this setup is only usable for rather small work. The Hardinge vertical head had the spindle nose offset above the centerline of the horizontal spindle but was still not nearly as useful as a real vertical mill. I bought a Rockwell vertical mill new in 1974. Around 1985, I bought a Hardinge TM with the OEM vertical head. I took the vertical head off and never used in 20 years or so and then sold it to someone who thought they could use it. I bought the Hardinge overarm, 1" arbor and 7/8" arbor, which were rare and expensive. The 5C drawbar for the horizontal spindle was on my mill, required for the OEM vertical head, so I did not have to buy that. I think I see the OEM drawbar in the fuzzy picture of the OP mill. To repeat, the horizontal spindle takes 5C collets. Hardinge made some 5C tooling that was special for the mill, not for their lathes, but all that stuff is rare. At least the 5C collets are easy to get.

That dividing head is not a Hardinge, so it may not be very well suited to the mill. It looks too big. The Hardinge dividing heads (plain or universal) were designed specifically for the mills.

The vise is not the OEM Hardinge vise; I don't know what it is. A 4" Kurt or clone (what I use) is the right size for the Hardinge mill, but the Hardinge vise is pretty good.

The fuzzy pictures of the front of the table look like this is a TM mill. Hardinge called the universal mill UM and the plain toolroom mill TM. Yes, Hardinge knew which was which. The confusion by other people is caused by Hardinge stamping the electrical plate TM/UM, simply because the electrical equipment was the same for both models. Hardinge has a long history of not marking many of their machines with the official Hardinge model name for that machine, and often not even putting the model designation in plain English in their printed catalogs.

When replacing the OEM motor, it will be found that the motor shaft is 3/4", not a modern shaft size, so the single phase motor probably has a 5/8" or 7/8" shaft and the pulley was adapted to fit.

Have fun.

Larry

Thanks Larry!

I’m more curious than ever to learn the story of that vertical head - I also noticed the cylinder on top, and looked everywhere for some kind of feed mechanism but didn’t see any. It seems to have been adapted from some other machine. You make a good point to figure out what speeds it can do.

I’ve been motivated by the notion that this mill can be reconfigured to horizontal, based on the flexibility of this configuration. Will check for all the parts this afternoon.

Also appreciate the mention regarding the dividing head - it seems likely the one in the background is the one the seller is including with the mill (to be confirmed today). Will check the vise as well.

You also clarified the mystery of why these always seemed to be called TM/UM mills - it makes total sense now.

My expectation for this (potential) purchase is that it will be capable of doing some work, albeit with limitations, right away. In the longer term, it should be a good “platform” to refurbish with the intention of reaching its full capabilities. Although there are not a lot of small mills for sale used in eastern Canada, there seem to be a lot of Hardinge parts for sale and the prices are good since there are few active owners. It should also be easier to purchase and transport parts from the Northeastern US back home than a whole mill!

Will try to take better/more pictures this afternoon and post here.

Thanks again everyone!

Delrin,
Mill is definitely a TM model as Larry V has pointed out. Probably from the mid to late 50s based on white dials and older style electrical box on the right side. Will have the hardened steel strips under the table. When you see the mill, note the serial number on the front of the table - from that you can determine build year. Though age will have little to do with value or usefulness compared to condition. The TM-UM mills were virtually unchanged mechanically from the late 40s until production ceased in the late 70s. Major things to check for are wear in lead screws (particularly X axis) and condition of sliding way surfaces.
From my experience owning two of these, they are very stout for their size and are capable of good accuracy. As others have inferred, they excel as a horizontal and much work is possible using the horizontal spindle in a vertical manner by clamping the work differently than in a more conventional "vertical" manner.
If you find a vertical head useful, obtaining one is probably a good idea. It is quite robust and provides good head room. But a major shortcoming is the lack of a quill so using it for boring/reaming/drilling is clumsy and slow. That said, I use my vertical enough that I keep one mill set up with the vertical head and the other set up as a horizontal. Changing between vertical to horizontal configurations takes about 10 minutes.
There are a number of easily misplaced bits and pieces to make both horizontal and vertical set-ups complete. Spare odds and ends are somewhat hard to find, so ensure everything is there.
PM sent.
Jim
There are a number of

Thanks Jim!

As noted earlier, this info is really helpful. Biggest risk is that the current owner re-jigged it for some very specific purpose and chucked out all the original parts.

Will check PM.

Delrin,

If you're looking for small high quality horizontal/vertical mill in Montreal, then you need to go see this Schaublin 13.

Schaublin model 13 Precision Toolroom Milling The world’s top brand! | eBay

I have no idea what kind of price the Hardinge is and how it compares to the price of this Schaublin but if it is in the same ballpark, run to the west island and look at it at the very least.

I am not disparaging the Hardinge by the way. But the Schaublin needs to be seen. I believe it is a little bigger than the Hardinge but not that much.

And if you go see it ask them to show you the other Schaublin they have, the 53, and salivate.

Good luck.

Jacques from Quebec but now in NC

Thanks Jacques,

That is indeed a gorgeous specimen - however it is way out of my price range

It makes me feel better about the Hardinge at least, which is a small fraction of the cost.

I'm also in a situation where every inch of space counts...

Nonetheless thanks for pointing this out!

Rick

L Vanice said:

Note that the knee is all the way down to the bottom of its travel leaving very little room between the vise and the drill chuck for a drill bit. In other words, this setup is only usable for rather small work.

Click to expand...

This is an important comment. I had a TM with the factory vertical head. As Larry notes the factory vertical head is elevated above the horizontal spindle with the use of a belt. Even so, the lack of Z space was limiting. Never had enough room for a jobber length drill in my 3 jaw chuck. The way this mill is set up seems to have even less.

Teryk


Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

mTeryk said:

This is an important comment. I had a TM with the factory vertical head. As Larry notes the factory vertical head is elevated above the horizontal spindle with the use of a belt. Even so, the lack of Z space was limiting. Never had enough room for a jobber length drill in my 3 jaw chuck. The way this mill is set up seems to have even less.

Click to expand...

Thanks - will definitely have to factor this into decision.

Followup after seeing the mill

I was able to see the mill in operation this afternoon, and got answers to a lot of the questions.

The seller is a retired machinist who seems quite accomplished. The vertical head, rotary table, and vise were designed and built by him. The rotary table is very heavy, and hangs from a small boom the owner devised (it can be swung over and the table raised under it).

The vertical head can be loosened and rotated. He had a small 1/2" chuck that he used for drill bits that helps a bit with clearance, but as noted above this will be limited. The vise he built was also designed with a fairly low profile. We put a few bits into the chuck and I could probably live with it, or bore horizontally. The ability of the head to rotate sideways also creates some possibilities there (there is no vertical feed other than the table).

The action of the table is very smooth, with backlash within 0.015". Raising the table, even with the very heavy indexing head on it, was not too bad in terms of effort. Power feed in the x-axis seems smooth.

The mill did not have a motor when it came into the seller's possession, and he installed a GE 1HP single-phase motor that can be connected to 115 or 220V. The way he has set it up, the speeds are set by changing pulleys and it does not reverse.

He is including all tooling and hardware that he had with the mill.

The biggest issue, which is probably not a show-stopper, is that some previous operator overclamped a bolt at the end of the central T slot, breaking the metal.

I've attached some pictures, including the motor name plate and some of the pieces that are purported to be the horizontal milling attachments.

Thanks again to all for their input, in particular Jim from SC who took the time to speak with me over the phone before and after the visit.

Rick