Another Question On Cut Off Blades For Hardinge Vertical Cut Off Tool
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    Default Another Question On Cut Off Blades For Hardinge Vertical Cut Off Tool

    I've been reading the posts on the cut off blades and have a couple questions.


    1. Do P blades only protrude to one side? Because in the pics, they all appear to be wider on the top part.

    2. If so, will that cause a tilting situation while clamped in the holder?


    3. My holder measures 11/16, so I'm guessing that I'll need to buy an 11/16 tall, blade? Did Hardinge make both 1/2" and 11/16" sized cutoff tools?



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    Hardinge designed the vertical cutoff tools to hold only size P3N 11/16" x 3/32" Empire Luers patent blades. Empire made the blades in a number of grades of HSS and carbide. There is also a more recently designed Hardinge-Belcar G21 11/16" x .120" insert holder that fits the slides.

    The Luers blades are also called T-shape because the top is wider than the main body. The holders have a recess to clear the top while holding the body flat against the holder, so there is no tilting.

    Empire made a wide variety of holders and several sizes of blades. Hardinge sold two Empire-made holders, calling them Hardinge model numbers D-10 and L-10. Hardinge also made Hardinge quick change tool post holders and chucker holders for .477" high Empire blades.

    Other companies have made Luers-type blades after the patents ran out. The patent is very detailed and requires complex machinery to grind exactly, so shortcuts are tempting. Some copies are OK, but some, in particular generic Chinese "1/2 inch high" blades, do not even fit the Empire or Hardinge holders because the genuine blades are .477" high, not 1/2 inch.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by L Vanice View Post
    Hardinge designed the vertical cutoff tools to hold only size P3N 11/16" x 3/32" Empire Luers patent blades. Empire made the blades in a number of grades of HSS and carbide. There is also a more recently designed Hardinge-Belcar G21 11/16" x .120" insert holder that fits the slides.

    The Luers blades are also called T-shape because the top is wider than the main body. The holders have a recess to clear the top while holding the body flat against the holder, so there is no tilting.

    Empire made a wide variety of holders and several sizes of blades. Hardinge sold two Empire-made holders, calling them Hardinge model numbers D-10 and L-10. Hardinge also made Hardinge quick change tool post holders and chucker holders for .477" high Empire blades.

    Other companies have made Luers-type blades after the patents ran out. The patent is very detailed and requires complex machinery to grind exactly, so shortcuts are tempting. Some copies are OK, but some, in particular generic Chinese "1/2 inch high" blades, do not even fit the Empire or Hardinge holders because the genuine blades are .477" high, not 1/2 inch.

    Larry
    Thanks Larry - great info as always. It looks like they don't make these anymore or is there a place to get them still? (The G12 holder).

    You wouldn't happen to have any extra blades you might want to sell off?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradjacob View Post
    Thanks Larry - great info as always. It looks like they don't make these anymore or is there a place to get them still? (The G12 holder).

    You wouldn't happen to have any extra blades you might want to sell off?
    Did you look for Hardinge G21 (not G12)?

    I have seen insert blades that are said to replace P3N on eBay, but I have never bought one. I expect they are Chinese. They are not very cheap and I don't know what inserts they use. RETROFIT CUT-OFF BLADE P3N-GT2 (39-5973) | eBay

    I do not have any spare P3N blades. New ones in several materials are on the Somma website and I trust them for quality. Do not get solid carbide because the two cams will probably break the blade. Lathe Cut Off Blades - H.S.S. Cut Off Blades - Parting Tool Blade | Somma Tool Company There are several sellers of cheap Chinese P3N blades on eBay.

    Watch out for the size on these T-blades. P3N is not the same as P3, so do not get the Empire P3 blades on eBay right now. They will not fit the Hardinge vertical cutoff.

    Larry

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    I have a bunch of the empire blades T-3, slightly less than 11/16" tall. Let me know if that will work for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob daniel View Post
    I have a bunch of the empire blades T-3, slightly less than 11/16" tall. Let me know if that will work for you.
    T3 and P3 are 1/8" wide and will not fit the Hardinge holder. The T series is tapered along the length and the P series is parallel so it can be sharpened and used from either end, especially useful on the double end carbide tipped version.

    Larry

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    Brad, just get a small block of steel, make a tool holder to hold a standard Iscar or Sandavik parting tool that uses replaceable inserts.
    I have parted thousands of stainless steel parts on my Hardinge Dsm 59 turret lathe with my Sandavik parting tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by bradjacob View Post
    I've been reading the posts on the cut off blades and have a couple questions.


    1. Do P blades only protrude to one side? Because in the pics, they all appear to be wider on the top part.

    2. If so, will that cause a tilting situation while clamped in the holder?


    3. My holder measures 11/16, so I'm guessing that I'll need to buy an 11/16 tall, blade? Did Hardinge make both 1/2" and 11/16" sized cutoff tools?



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    Quote Originally Posted by L Vanice View Post
    I have seen insert blades that are said to replace P3N on eBay, but I have never bought one. I expect they are Chinese. They are not very cheap and I don't know what inserts they use. RETROFIT CUT-OFF BLADE P3N-GT2 (39��-5973) | eBay

    Larry
    Be careful with these blades, they have built in top rake. Added to the 7 degree rake in the Hardinge block and you will have way too much top rake.


    I have sent you a PM

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitandmiss View Post
    Be careful with these blades, they have built in top rake. Added to the 7 degree rake in the Hardinge block and you will have way too much top rake.


    I have sent you a PM

    Bill
    That is an excellent observation. The insert-type cutoff blades I have, but have never used, are designed to mount with the insert holder level, not tilted. That is why they have top rake on the inserts. I have read that they work well and will try one some day.

    I only use the Empire blades on my Hardinge QCTP and sharpen them in the way Luers intended (end only). That means the top rake is whatever the holder has built in. But I have bought lots of used Empire blades on eBay that have been improperly ground with a big hook on the end making a very high top rake angle. I lost about 1/4" or more on the length when I ground away the messed up ends. So, if some people like lots of top rake on a cutoff tool, that P3N insert tool might be OK.

    Here are pictures of a messed-up Empire blade and an old one with the correct end only grind showing the old Luers patent info. Then an Empire holder as sold by Hardinge for the DSM59 and then some shots showing the end grind.

    Larry

    cutoff-2.jpgempire-p1-blade-early-stamped-luers-.jpgd10-rear-cutoff-1-1.jpgp3n-blade-4.jpgp3n-blade-5.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradjacob View Post
    Thanks Larry - great info as always. It looks like they don't make these anymore or is there a place to get them still? (The G12 holder).

    You wouldn't happen to have any extra blades you might want to sell off?
    FWIW: Cleveland Mo-Max makes a P3N blade. I've bought mine from MSC and whenever they pop up on Ebay.

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    Thanks guys. I've ordered one from eBay and the insert-retro fit blade that Larry advised. Something still is puzzling - do the P3N blades protrude on both sides of the blade? If so, my holder only has relief on one half (the same piece that Larry is showing in his first picture). Won't it sit tilted in the holder?

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    Yes, the P3N blades have a T-shape profile which protrudes on both sides.

    Yes, this makes setting the blade in the vertical cutoff slide a bit fussy.

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    The blades do not tilt because the cams are tapered in the direction that pulls the blade body flat against the holder. The pictures will help understanding.

    Larry

    dsc01011.jpgdsc01012.jpgdsc01013.jpg

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    I don't know if this can be done for a hardinge but I made a new toolblock for my wade 98 to accept up to 3/4 holders on the vertical parting slide. Makes it way easier to get insert tooling etc. I use some brazed screw machine parting tools and they last a good while before I sharpen them again. Oh and I primarily work with 6-4alv titanium. But it works just as good in zirconium, copper, brass, aluminum, steel, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L Vanice View Post
    The blades do not tilt because the cams are tapered in the direction that pulls the blade body flat against the holder. The pictures will help understanding.

    Larry

    dsc01011.jpgdsc01012.jpgdsc01013.jpg

    Ahhh..... NOW I see (play the angelic music), LOL - thanks Larry.

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    Does anyone have a blade holder that mounts on the cross-slide? I do have the vertical cutoff, but would also like the ability to use the cross slide.

    I can NOT find one on eBay to save my life. I've searched for Hardinge D-10 and L-10 with no luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L Vanice View Post
    That is an excellent observation. The insert-type cutoff blades I have, but have never used, are designed to mount with the insert holder level, not tilted. That is why they have top rake on the inserts. I have read that they work well and will try one some day.

    I only use the Empire blades on my Hardinge QCTP and sharpen them in the way Luers intended (end only). That means the top rake is whatever the holder has built in. But I have bought lots of used Empire blades on eBay that have been improperly ground with a big hook on the end making a very high top rake angle. I lost about 1/4" or more on the length when I ground away the messed up ends. So, if some people like lots of top rake on a cutoff tool, that P3N insert tool might be OK.

    Here are pictures of a messed-up Empire blade and an old one with the correct end only grind showing the old Luers patent info. Then an Empire holder as sold by Hardinge for the DSM59 and then some shots showing the end grind.

    Larry

    cutoff-2.jpgempire-p1-blade-early-stamped-luers-.jpgd10-rear-cutoff-1-1.jpgp3n-blade-4.jpgp3n-blade-5.jpg
    Larry who makes the holder in the 3rd picture (the blue background)? I can NOT find one of these at all... And do you have one you'd like to sell?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradjacob View Post
    Larry who makes the holder in the 3rd picture (the blue background)? I can NOT find one of these at all... And do you have one you'd like to sell?
    Empire made the D10 and L10 holders, but Hardinge sold them in Hardinge boxes.

    The D10, in that picture, is for use on the lever cross slide. It can be assembled four ways, to use on the front or rear, with the blade on the left or right of the body.

    The L10 is for use on a slide rest (two cranks) or on the rear tool slide attachment on the HLV-H.

    I do have spares of both models and blades for sale. They take blades that are .477 high high and either 1/16, 3/32 or 1/8 inch wide.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by L Vanice View Post
    Empire made the D10 and L10 holders, but Hardinge sold them in Hardinge boxes.

    The D10, in that picture, is for use on the lever cross slide. It can be assembled four ways, to use on the front or rear, with the blade on the left or right of the body.

    The L10 is for use on a slide rest (two cranks) or on the rear tool slide attachment on the HLV-H.

    I do have spares of both models and blades for sale. They take blades that are .477 high high and either 1/16, 3/32 or 1/8 inch wide.

    Larry
    Excellent - that's great news. PM me with your email (PayPal) and we'll get it started!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradjacob View Post
    Excellent - that's great news. PM me with your email (PayPal) and we'll get it started!
    PM sent.

    Here are pictures of the D10 holder with a blade.

    Larry

    d10-1-1.jpgd10-1-2.jpg


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