Lubricants for HLV

I have recently submitted this request to the Hardringe forum on Yahoo Groups but I have not gotten any responses. Thus I turn to the experts here. A search on this forum provided potential answers but I would like definitive responses.

Our club has recently acquired a rather old but serviceable HVL lathe. I volunteered to look into the lubrication requirements. The accompanying manuals refer to materials which may no longer be available and I am searching for suitable replacements. I called Hardringe service and the field engineer could not provide much guidance but he did mention the name and phone extension of the HLV “guru” who is presently on vacation.

Not willing to wait, I appeal to this board’s experts for advice. I’m specifically interested in replacements for:

1) Cosmolube #2 which is some kind of grease. But is it lithium based, calcium based, polyurea, silicone, etc. ? Also is this NLGI #1, #1.5 or #2? An earlier post in this forum stated Hardringe now recommends a Gulf Crown number 2.

2) Molylube (Anti-seize) On the Website of Bel Ray Co. (the manufacturer) there are numerous varieties. Even ENCO and MSC list copper filled, nickel filled, silver filled and plain-Jane petroleum material. Which do I choose?

3) Automatic Transmission Fluid Mobilfluid 350 but what I find on the web is that Mobilfluid 350 is a hydraulic fluid which does seem to be available anymore. I was considering Mobil 1 synthetic automatic transmission fluid or Mobilfluid 424.

4) Kling grease for gears in gear box

Thanks for any assistance.

This is what, a narrow bed HLVB, with the hand-operated
screw speed change, or is it a wide bed HLVH?

The HLVH uses basic store-bought ATF fluid for the
way lube and for the carriage. The feed screw for
the speed change mechanism uses grease.

I don't know of any use for anti-sieze on that machine
though.

Jim

Lubricants for HLV-H

Jim thanks for the info.

To respond to your questions, the machine is an 1984 vintage HLV-H.

Quoting page 22 of the maintenance manual "Lubricate bearing surfaces of countershaft with anti-seize Molylube every three months."

I use engine assembly Molylube for that purpose. The intent in putting together an engine is to eliminate galling during the first few turns of an engine before oil pressure is available, especially on the camshaft lobes, so it seems right for the countershaft application. Available at any NAPA store. I suspect there is quite a bit of latitude in what you use on this.

Jim, I've always used Vactra No. 2 for the way lube. Does your manual show the ATF now?

- Mike

This is what I have settled on after talking to both Hardinge and Mobil a number of times:

1) Cosmolube #2 which is some kind of grease. But is it lithium based, calcium based, polyurea, silicone, etc. ? Also is this NLGI #1, #1.5 or #2? An earlier post in this forum stated Hardringe now recommends a Gulf Crown number 2.

Mobil Grease XHP-222

2) Molylube (Anti-seize) On the Website of Bel Ray Co. (the manufacturer) there are numerous varieties. Even ENCO and MSC list copper filled, nickel filled, silver filled and plain-Jane petroleum material. Which do I choose?

Bostik Never Seez, copper filled

3) Automatic Transmission Fluid Mobilfluid 350 but what I find on the web is that Mobilfluid 350 is a hydraulic fluid which does seem to be available anymore. I was considering Mobil 1 synthetic automatic transmission fluid or Mobilfluid 424.

Mobilfluid 424


Mike

I just do what the placard on the machine says, the
oil is from a quart bottle gotten at the local mobil
station.

Jim

Hi Jim,

It's strange the way something as striaght forward as a plate specifying a lubricant varies so much from machine to machine. Mine specifies Mobilfluid 350 specifically. I bought the 424 as Mobil specifies it as a replacement for the 350 which is no longer available (at least not at the time I was looking for it). Not knowing anything about lubricants and being afraid to "ruin" my precious machine, finding substitutes was a learning experience made more interesting by the changes in lubricant technology and oil company consolidation.

I forgot to mention that my machine specifies Vactra 2 for the ways, and that's what I use.

Mike

Tag on HLV-H apron

mmambro & Jim,

Went over to the clubhouse this morning and checked the apron on the HLV-H. A tag similar to that on Jim's machine was on ours stating ATF type A or equivalent. And it also had Mobilfluid 350 in bold lettering.

Thanks for the info - placed a lubricant order to ENCO.

HLV lubes

If you call Hardinge Service they can probably provide the MSDS sheets on all the lubes for the HLV's

Old thread, but for reference ours specs Mobilfluid 350 or Type A ATF. Turns out type A ATF hasn't been made for years, but if you can believe Wikipedia it's equivalent to a 50/50 mix of Dextron and Type F fluids! The mix seems to work well in our machine apron. I use any open gear grease instead of the Cosmolube.

When I bought a new HLV-H, it came with a can of lube for the apron.. I found it interesting that that oil (ATF) was clear.. No red color as our ATF has.

Thread resurrection time...

Found some info on Mobilfluid 350:

"Mobilfluid 350 is a premium-quality power transmission fluid designed for machine tool and industrial hydrostatic drives and other industrial equipment drives using wet clutches. It has an extremely high viscosity index (VI), low pour point, and excellent low-temperature viscosity characteristics. It resists the loss of viscosity and VI under severe mechanical shear and is highly resistant to foaming and air entrainment. Antiwear additives in Mobilfluid 350 are nonreactive and do not affect the sintered bronze or other materials used as the facings of wet clutches in machine tool drives."

Spec. Grav.: 0.887
Pour point: -39ºF
Flash point: 370ºF
Viscosity cSt: 39.9 @ 40ºC, 7.6 @ 100ºC
Viscosity Index: 154

It seems to me that Mobilfluid LT would be a better match than Mobilfluid 424. LT has slightly lower viscosity than 350, 424 has significantly higher viscosity.

The red color in ordinary ATF is just dye, added to make it visible on dipsticks and so on.

This is indeed what I run in the carriage gearbox and as way lube on my ATF. It's what the
manufacturer sped'd on a SN 330 lathe.

jim rozen said:

The red color in ordinary ATF is just dye, added to make it visible on dipsticks and so on.

This is indeed what I run in the carriage gearbox and as way lube on my ATF. It's what the
manufacturer sped'd on a SN 330 lathe.

Click to expand...

I use the same thing. The HLV-H manual: "automatic transmission fluid Mobilfluid 360 or equivalent. CHANGE OIL EVERY 60 DAYS".

I am more concerned over the seal on the gearbox, I get a drop every once in a while. Or I run my finger underneath the assembly and I pick up a bit of red muck. Another minor thing to fix (again) one day.

Here's why Hardinge spec'd Mobilfluid 350 rather than regular ATF. From a Mobil Product Guide 2004:

"Mobilfluid 350 is a premium-quality power transmission fluid designed for machine tool and industrial hydrostatic drives and other industrial equipment using wet clutches... Antiwear additives in Mobilfluid 350 are nonreactive and do not affect the sintered bronze or other materials used as the facing of wet clutches in machine tool drives."

From the research I've done so far, the closest match to the discontinued Mobilfluid 350 is Mobilfluid LT, which has viscosity of 35 cSt 40ºC vs. Mobilfluid 350's 40 cSt at 40ºC. Unfortunately it is only available in 5 gal buckets.

It is, however, used in some automobiles as a 4WD transfer case lubricant, and available in 1 Qt or 1L bottles. I've been able to confirm Porsche part No. 000 043 303 00 is Mobilfluid LT 1L bottle (states so on the front label). There is also a Chrysler spec for this fluid. Trying to confirm the exact part number (they have multiple similar ones).

I'll be very amused if once I track down the Mopar version it is more costly than the Porsche version...

I've also calculated that mixing 75% Mobilfluid LT and 25% Mobilfluid 424 would get you to the same 40 cSt as the discontinued Mobilfluid 350.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how the HLV would react to having a 55 cSt viscosity oil instead of 40 cSt? Perhaps it would not be a problem in a warmer climate?

I've noticed that the Mobilfluid 424 can be bought for about $65 for a 2.5g bottle. Thats about the same as 1L of the Porsche branded LT fluid, so it's 1/10th the price.

BTW, does anyone know the fluid capacity of the oil reservoir for the apron gearbox?

P.S. To make things even more confusing: I just noticed in an earlier version of the HLV-H manual (for pre SN 5000 lathes), they spec "Mobilfluid 200".

FWIW, ours dripped oil out the apron where the motor attaches. I didn't see a gasket specified there, so we just cut a piece of heavy card stock and used that. No more oil loss, save for the bad o-rings around the handle.

Hardinge's recommendation for HLV-H carriage lube

I have an old HLV-H (s/n 558) that needs a carriage fluid change. I contacted Hardinge (shop.hardinge.com) to ask what they recommended since the original fluid wasn't available anymore, and was told "Mobil 350 has been replaced with mobil 424. We don’t have oil. You would need to get this from mobil."

I've always used Vactra #2 for way oil as well. Mike