Can anyone tell me why did I take apart this Hardinge spindle? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Not particularly pertinent to your situation at hand, but Hardinge HLVH's do not require removing the gearbox housings etc. in order to change belts. The idler gear between the spindle and gearbox is removable, and shift fork shaft slides out (instructions in the maintenance manual). Good luck, a good sense of humor is an asset (it took me decades to learn (the hard way) if it ain't broke, don't fix it, and/or don't blindly start takin stuff apart, and I STILL do it on occasion). Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Can you document what you had to do to get the spindle and bearings out and replace
    I pretty much just followed a Hardinge HLV-H service manual:

    1) Lifted the motor plate all the way up using the belt tension adjustment screw.
    2) Temporarily powered up the machine, set it to highest possible RPMs.
    3) Slid idler pulleys all the way to the right, so the axle came out of the left bearing and formed a gap large enough to remove a belt.
    4) Took the spindle belt off the idler.
    5) Changed the RPMs to lowest possible.
    6) Removed the motor belt.
    7) Took the gearbox off. It was held in place by 4 Allen screws. One screw is in a very deep recess, you need a really long Allen wrench in order to get it. I used a hex screwdriver bit plugged into a really long extension rod.
    8) Removed the spindle belt. It's not mentioned in a service manual that you need to disengage low/high lever arm in order to take the belt off.
    9) Pulled a gear off the spindle using a very basic gear puller. It was a couple of set screws that I had to take off before that.
    10) Manufactured a custom spanner wrench for a spindle locknut. That was probably the most challenging part. I happened to have an aluminum ring of just right size. I drilled holes and pressed hardened dowel pins into it. Then I drilled a hole in the side of it and used a small hex socket with a bunch of extensions as a driver (it's on a photo in the very first post). You better to machine this tool while a lathe is still operational.
    11) Drove the spindle out slightly tapping it with a rubber mallet from the rear.

    Let me know if you need more details or exact dimensions of the spanner wrench.


    P.S. bearings ordered, fingers crossed!

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    The main question for now:

    Do I need to take an outer preload cylinder off the headstock bore? It seems to be held by a tapered pin accordingly to a service manual. I don't see the pin, it must be painted over. Even if I find it - I don't see any apparent ways to remove that pin. What am I missing?
    headstock-tapered-pin.jpg

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    If that spacer sleeve is still in the headstock, you can try to pry the pin out from the inside - there should be a through hole that's visible. Use a dental pick and mirror to locate the hole, then you can try using Allen wrenches and fulcrum blocks to lever the pin out. May need a smaller pin shoved into the inside hole to get force transfer.

    If you can't see a through hole on the inside of the sleeve, there may be some other retention method that was used to hold it in place. Probably safer at that point to plan for leaving it in place and trying to adjust preload with only the inner sleeve. A bit of a pain if it turns out to be short, in that case making a new, longer sleeve may be needed.

    In any adjustments you make it is imperative to maintain squareness and parallelism of the sleeve ends. Only adjust one side, leave the other for reference. Any errors here will lower the ability of the bearings to do their job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by car2 View Post
    Not particularly pertinent to your situation at hand, but Hardinge HLVH's do not require removing the gearbox housings etc. in order to change belts. The idler gear between the spindle and gearbox is removable, and shift fork shaft slides out (instructions in the maintenance manual). Good luck, a good sense of humor is an asset (it took me decades to learn (the hard way) if it ain't broke, don't fix it, and/or don't blindly start takin stuff apart, and I STILL do it on occasion). Cheers.
    Thanks!

    The reason I had to take off the entire gearbox - Feeler has apparently screwed up the idler shaft removal aspect of Hardinge. As it may be seen on attached pictures, the bearing bore is located little lower than a horizontal surface of the casting. There is no room for the bearing to slide out. It might be a groove or recess in that place that was bondo-ed and painted-over (or maybe I just didn't get something). All the paint is 100% original.
    img_6894.jpgimg_7711.jpg

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    You might be able to remove that flash with careful use of a Dremel or die grinder. Just tape over the bearing and mask other areas to keep grinding swarf out. A nick or two on the bearing outer race won't hurt it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    You might be able to remove that flash with careful use of a Dremel or die grinder. Just tape over the bearing and mask other areas to keep grinding swarf out. A nick or two on the bearing outer race won't hurt it.
    Thanks - will do this next time I need to replace the belts. Hopefully, never

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    When I took out my spindle assembly I was able to clean and re-lube the bearings. Because they had metal shields I decided to soak the old grease and work in new grease with my hands,

    If you were to pop the rubber seals on the inside of the head you might have been able to do the same thing with more ease. A seal moving tool would not be a screw driver. A carved piece of wood or plastic works. If the rubber shield get messed up then you got your new bearings. Otherwise put back the seals and keep the new bearings for spares.

    This advice is based on the belief that parts should be replaced only when necessary.

    I also got some advice about holding my ear to the head listening for a rumbling sound. I don't have enough experience with what kinds of sound is good or bad. However, you did have the chance to stick your ear to the head before taking everything apart. Then you could have compared the sound before and after. You can become a good trouble-shooter doing things this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    When I took out my spindle assembly I was able to clean and re-lube the bearings. Because they had metal shields I decided to soak the old grease and work in new grease with my hands,

    If you were to pop the rubber seals on the inside of the head you might have been able to do the same thing with more ease. A seal moving tool would not be a screw driver. A carved piece of wood or plastic works. If the rubber shield get messed up then you got your new bearings. Otherwise put back the seals and keep the new bearings for spares.

    This advice is based on the belief that parts should be replaced only when necessary.

    I also got some advice about holding my ear to the head listening for a rumbling sound. I don't have enough experience with what kinds of sound is good or bad. However, you did have the chance to stick your ear to the head before taking everything apart. Then you could have compared the sound before and after. You can become a good trouble-shooter doing things this way.
    Thanks! There are no rubber seals in a Hardinge spindle. Front bearing is protected by a pretty crude labyrinth seal and back bearing is not protected at all. Bearings themselves are open type. Somehow I don't see too many rubber seals on machine spindles. My Abene VHF-3 headstock is even less "sealed". This makes me wander - why? Rubber seals are cheap and effective. They successfully seal crankshafts of gasoline engines which are larger diameter and spin with higher RPMs comparing to a small lathe or a mill. Those seals also withstand harsh weather conditions and they last forever.

    There is a way to re-lubricate the bearings in a Hardinge HLV-H without taking the spindle off. Richard King did that and he told about it in some other thread ( HLV-H not greased for life?. ). I don't think that would cure my problem, at least not permanently. My front bearing is in a terrible condition and I've seen lots of bearings. I will take it apart and inspect with a microscope.

    About the sound, it was like a car with a neglected serpentine belt idler pulley. High pitch whining noise on RPMs above 2000.

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    I really like a puller from this post: 10ee spindle removal . To those who is thinking about taking a spindle out - that is the way to go.
    Last edited by Frigzy; 01-18-2019 at 12:03 AM.

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    Is this a valid measurement setup?

    img_5337.jpgimg_1885.jpg

    Bearing surfaces of the spindle lie on AA grade gage blocks 0.500" each. 1-2-3 blocks are stopping the spindle from rolling. I wiggle an indicator back and forth to find the maximum and I assume it's a relative diameter of that particular spot. Then I will rotate the spindle 45 degrees at a time.

    I want to measure runout, straightness, roundness and concentricity along the spindle.

    UPD: I moved this question into "Metrology" Measuring a lathe spindle on a surface plate
    Last edited by Frigzy; 01-18-2019 at 11:21 AM.

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    I have to say, this was a good read with lunch. Good luck to you Frigzy! You'll get it, especially with the good help you're getting.

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    A hardinge company bearing replacement also include grinding the spindle head (outside & inside) tapers.

    Over the years I recall seeing pictures of grinding attachments on a Hardinge lathe bed. An individual does his own grinding. I am not sure if
    that is good or not. Wait for some other opinions. As I see it, the spindle head is where all accumulated errors (bearings, bearing seats, etc) show up.
    Last edited by rons; 01-18-2019 at 06:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frigzy View Post
    Well, it's a Feeler FTL-618EM, but I like so much to call it a Hardinge :-)

    The spindle would make funny noises at RPMs above 2000 and TIR was as much as 0.0005" on both - inner and outer tapers. It produced nasty finishes on everything except 4140.

    As if my life was not challenged enough, I started to slowly disassemble the headstock with intention to check out grease in the bearings.

    In a creative impulse of violence, I didn't notice myself how the spindle was taken apart down to a smallest piece.

    The rear bearing feels OK, but the front one gives a lot of roughness, like if balls were square-shaped. It would also spin 10-20 revolutions if I push it by hand.

    What is the diagnosis? Re-lubrication? Replacement?

    On the last photo is a tool that I made to undo the spindle nut.

    Thanks!
    Attachment 247011Attachment 247012Attachment 247013Attachment 247014


    good Lord you work on a precision spindle with a pipe wrench???????

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    A hardinge company bearing replacement also include grinding the spindle head (outside & inside) tapers.

    Over the years I recall seeing pictures of grinding attachments on a Hardinge lathe bed. An individual does his own grinding. I am not sure if
    that is good or not. What for some other opinions. As I see it, the spindle head is where all accumulated errors (bearings, bearing seats, etc) how up.
    Yes, I read about that as well. That looks to be a good candidate for my next screw-up :-)
    There is a guy who just turned the spindle nose with a CBN insert and he is super happy about the results: HLV-H spindle rebored

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    Quote Originally Posted by batw View Post
    good Lord you work on a precision spindle with a pipe wrench???????
    No, I just photoshopped it there to get warmer reception. In reality it all happened inside a NASA clean room right next to a satellite assembly line.

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    Great thread, I've learned a lot about high precision spindle bearings reading through that NSK document. Can you please post pictures of the bearing boxes once you receive them from Hardinge? I would like to see the part numbers that are sent.

    Looking through the NSK document they say that running a sealed version vs. an open bearing will increase life by over 50%. I wonder why Hardinge would not have upgraded to this design? I have been told a lot of the rear bearings fail due to dust ingress from the drive belt. That makes sense because all the HLV-H lathes I change belts on are covered in belt dust in that area.

    This thread about the markings that Hardinge engraved on the spindle and headstock is another great read: Hardinge HLV-H spindle markings?

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    "Do I need to take an outer preload cylinder off the headstock bore?""

    I have never seen an HLVH bearing re-work procedure that requires removing the
    inner preload sleeve from the headstock casting. But these of course were not
    feeler.

    Here's a wild suggestion: call feeler and ask for their bearing instructions. They're still
    in business, yes?

    Probably your best bet is to determine exactly what angular contact bearings you have
    in your hands, and then contact alpine bearing and purchase new. Read and follow
    the instructions that come from the bearing manufaturer.

    Read and follow whatever information you can get from Feeler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Here's a wild suggestion: call feeler and ask for their bearing instructions. They're still
    in business, yes?

    Probably your best bet is to determine exactly what angular contact bearings you have
    in your hands, and then contact alpine bearing and purchase new. Read and follow
    the instructions that come from the bearing manufaturer.

    Read and follow whatever information you can get from Feeler.
    So far, Feeler has been identical to HLV-H with exception of few minor things, like metric threads instead of inch threads (or maybe HLV-H employes metric fasteners as well? I've never seen one).

    The rumors are, feeler factory caught fire in 2003 and it burnt down to the ground. They have never recovered.
    Cyclematic, which is next closest thing, stopped manufacturing Hardinge clones and they don't sell parts any longer.

    I posted bearing markings and other info few posts above. Basically, they're identical to those Hardinge uses, except different brand - FAG vs NSK.

    I checked Alpine prices on 7014 bearings. They start from $1400 a piece

    Hardinge offers least expensive bearings at the moment.

    Thanks!

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    Check with Eisen. When I needed a couple of parts for my Victor 618, they said they could support almost any part for my lathe.

    Tom

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