Cleaning up bridgeport mill - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamC View Post
    Not sure what you are basing this statement on. Bridgeports are designed to accept wear, with adjustable gibs, lead screws etc.
    I looked at the picture of the ways. they are crap! A screw as rusty as that is will also tear up the nut. You can remove the rust, but that doesn't remove the pits. I've been doing this since before most of you were born. Once those ways are pitted, there's really nothing left to do but scrape them back to factory specs.

    A pig is still a pig even if it's got lipstick on it.
    JR

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewmawson View Post
    The advantage of Citric Acid is that the rust is converted to iron citrate, WHICH IS WATER SOLUBLE. So if tight fitting parts are being de-rusted (especially threaded fasteners) the citrate migrates back into the bulk of the solution.

    Phosphoric Acid for instance forms iron phosphate which is not water soluble, and although smaller than the rust it came from is still larger than the original iron, so parts remain jammed !
    Andrew what's the ratio of powder to water? You had I think about a 30 pound bag. Where did you buy it and how much was it?

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    I've always bought Citric Acid on eBay - usually 10 kG's at a time, though the bag you saw was a 25 kg bag - a friend tipped me off about an 'out of date' batch on ebay going really cheap. Now for my use there is no 'out of date' - this stuff is food grade so I suppose they have to put a date on it.

    Just one of many suppliers:

    1kg Bath Bomb Ingredients - Epsoms/Dead Sea Salt Citric Acid Sodium Bicarbonate | eBay

    As for dilution, I put perhaps 500 grams in a 2 gallon bucket. Make it too strong and the citric acid crystallises out of solution onto the parts and frankly strength doesn't seem to make much difference though temperature does.

    Good thing about citric acid is that it is only Lemon Juice after all - safe to put your hands in (although cuts will sting) and also safe to dispose of.

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    Ive had good success with citric acid, 3% iirc. One thing to be mindful of is it (as least seemed to) dissolves the base metal a little as well as the the rust, no major problem but you wouldnt want to leave it there days on end. Flash rust was another problem but dipping in baking soda greatly helped with that.
    I was working on some old lorry wheels, used a needle scaler to batter of the worst of it then dipped them in the citric for the finish.

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    I've heard the comment about the base metal dissolving before but it's not my experience. The four 1.5" acme threaded support threads of my 60 ton press were immersed in citric acid for several weeks before the rust between them and the bronze nuts was removed, and as Richard saw when he visited in December, the threads were absolutely fine !

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewmawson View Post
    I've heard the comment about the base metal dissolving before but it's not my experience. The four 1.5" acme threaded support threads of my 60 ton press were immersed in citric acid for several weeks before the rust between them and the bronze nuts was removed, and as Richard saw when he visited in December, the threads were absolutely fine !
    Ah thats interesting, I wonder if it has something to do with the material or perhaps it was some sort of residue that formed when I had a go? It sure looked like it took some steel away from the wheels. Id dip them for a few hours then jet wash them down and put them back in to chase the stubborn patches of rust. On the clean steel you could see a metallic looking residue coming off as I pulled the wheel out the tub, the surface also looked etched. Be easy enough to check I guess, take two pieces of the same material, clean them up and take a note of the weights, keep one for control and dump one in the solution for a period of time and compare the weights of each. Will do it when I get a mo cos other than that I thought the citric worked great, much quicker and cleaner than molasses .

    This is the video I followed when I had a play. What do you think on the old hydrogen embrittlement thing? scaremongering by the guys who sell the expensive stuff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Andrew what's the ratio of powder to water? You had I think about a 30 pound bag. Where did you buy it and how much was it?
    Citric acid doesn't have to be people food grade


    In the US, you can get it from TSC or animal vets, or vet supply stores / feedmills

    It's used in poultry / livestock water lines and water bowls to clean and dissolve scale

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    Interesting as it would probably clean my humidifier filter then I bet. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    After such rust removing a good wash with washing soda added to the wash solution, to rid the rust remove solutions. The soda leaves a fine powder that deters rusting ...Yes when dry a good oil coat help to not get new rust.

    I wash / towel dry / then oil...
    Baking soda or soda ash will work as well to neutralize the citric acid. Soda ash is cheap and can be ordered online or bought at pool supplies. Neither will contain detergents or other additives. As Buck said rinse well with warm water, dry and oil immediately to prevent flash rust.

    dee

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRIowa View Post
    I looked at the picture of the ways. they are crap! A screw as rusty as that is will also tear up the nut. You can remove the rust, but that doesn't remove the pits. I've been doing this since before most of you were born. Once those ways are pitted, there's really nothing left to do but scrape them back to factory specs.

    A pig is still a pig even if it's got lipstick on it.
    JR
    Come on JR. Are you really calling this poor guy's mill a pig? Don't ya think that's a bit much?

    Appreciate your opinion, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I have no idea what the condition of this mill is. What's the difference between .003" of wear or .003" of rust? The rust could be more uniform and easier to compensate for. And I don't think pits are necessarily a problem for a precision surface. If the original surface is 100% pitted such that no original high spots remain, well....but I can't tell that from the pictures I saw in any case.

    My advise is to try to loosen the nuts in the saddle. Whether they are split or not, there is a slotted screw that squeezes together two halves of each nut that compensates for wear and reduces backlash. I would loosen that if possible. But if worse comes to worse and the nuts were damaged???? Either split them and reinstall or just buy new ones. What's the big deal?

    Hopefully this wasn't an insanely expensive machine. New parts and some elbow grease may be money/time well spent. Like I said, hose it down with WD-40 every day for a week then see where you are. Be gentle with it. Its old. Anything not broken can be fixed. That's the fun of these machines. I think I read here that the flaking can be 2-3 thou deep. So if you can see faint traces, you may have wear in that order of magnitude. Lots of working machines with that kind of wear making good parts everyday.

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    likely if the spindle and motor bearing are still smooth the it may be an OK machine...

    Bearings and tear down is a big job..but still at one time it was mostly just a rough casing...

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    I may be new to this site, but I've cleaned up more than my share of rusty machines. Forget the rust removers and electrolysis, get a good razor scraper handle and a box of new blades, using a very steep angle and lots of pressure scrape the rust off, the trick is not to gouge the metal while doing that. If you hit a nick in the table top, stone it, then start again with a new blade. Pull the lead screws out, use a stiff wire brush and scrub till clean. If the quill is stuck, use lots of lube, and good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Interesting as it would probably clean my humidifier filter then I bet. :-)
    I use food-grade white vinegar bought in gallons at Food Lion or such for that. Also the coffee boiler. And all my SS cookware, where it REALLY helps. Essential, even.

    Smellier than Citric, Acetic Acid is, but easier to find, and it works well. RealLemon and RealLime work well, too.

    Machinery? Not so much. I like "Goop" with elbow grease, razors, Brass/Bronze brushes.
    And patience.

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  20. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamC View Post
    Come on JR. Are you really calling this poor guy's mill a pig?
    Yup, I've made a living cranking BP handles. That machine would not be in any shop that I've worked in. A lot of you hobhby guys have a lot of time on your hands and think by cleaning up a machine and putting a little paint on it, the machine is "rebuilt" or "refurbished". Still a pig with lipstick on. Sorry, but you asked!

    The line I like best is: "I rescued this machine from the junkyard"

    If you want a machine to learn on, at least get a decent machine. I've ran a lot of junk over the years, It always seemed like when you couldn't get the slop out by adjusting the gib, the machine was gone. Of the larger shops that I was in, they were replacing one BP each year. Those days are gone. The shops that had 12-15 toolmakers now have 3-4 and a whole bunch of "machine operators" running CNCs to square up blocks and rough in cavities.

    All the guys that I learned fromn are long gone. I'm now the "experienced guy". I retired a couple of years ago and there are very few that want to know what I know. You don't learn in a weekend what I've learned in over 50 years doing this shit.
    JR

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    I would move the thread to http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...nd-inspection/

    you may get more specific advice form the rebuilders. Things on that mill look needing a lot of attention. Try to pump PB into the oil fittings. Let things sit as long as you cannot easily break them loose. Remove as much rust as you can with the least amount of damage. make sure you try not brake any of the parts.

    dee
    ;-D
    Dee? If those fotos are accurate it ain't worth moving even the electrons back of a PM Database link.

    Smelter should have this one whilst the search resumes for something less gangrenous..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    Dee? If those fotos are accurate it ain't worth moving even the electrons back of a PM Database link.

    Smelter should have this one whilst the search resumes for something less gangrenous..
    some people treat purchases as kitts...maybe he can make something out of it . Has cranks, excellent scraping practice.

    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    I would move the thread to dee ;-D
    Good idea, but methinks the moderator is AWOL.
    Hasn't been on in 6 months.
    JR

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    I guess I don't see the mill as being unsaveable. I use the razor blade method as mentioned in a previous post. The closeup picture is not a way surface, it is the top of the table.If you can get that flat, a vise will go on it, and its beauty will mean little. As to the way pic, I am not sure if that is a ridge or staining from the rust.Use a wire brush over the lead screw before turning it. It won't affect the accuracy of the screw at all.
    With some elbow grease, you may wind up with a good machine. Once the rust is off, and everything moves, then the group will tell you how to measure and evaluate the wear.

    Good Luck,
    Jon P.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpevner View Post
    I guess I don't see the mill as being unsaveable.
    Aside from peace in the Middle East, most anything is "saveable". At some cost.

    But this is a Bridgeport. Made by the tens of thousands. Not a brass era antique car.

    A "sum" of time, sweat, and money has to be poured into it.

    That "sum" - whatever it is - will go much further if a better starting point is selected. Those are not even close to being "rare".

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    Well, we don't know what he paid for it, and frankly it isn't any of our business anyway.

    Also, we don't know what, if any, needs to be spent on it.
    So, since this fellow already has the machine, why not encourage him to spend a couple days cleaning it up, and then see what he's got.
    For everyone, the time,money, effort equation is different. The OP sounds like a rational adult, let him figure it out. Probably already has.


    regards,

    Jon P.

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