Empire cut-Off Blades

Gentleman, et al,
I just found what I guess is an Empire cut-off holder in a box of stuff. AX18, A36. Works great. Fits in when you have a tight fit between the turret and collet. Another thread brought me to Crobalt® :: Cut-Off Blades
My question is can I use the 3/32" x .476" Tan 2000, as well as the 1/8" x .476" Tan 2002 tools in the same holder?

Thanks so much,

Payson.

Yes, there are several width blades that fit the holder, with several materials available. The .477 or .476" height is the only critical dimension. The Luers patent T-type blades must only be sharpened on the end. I have seen lots of used blades that were wrecked by grinding the sides and/or top. Note that the Empire size numbers like P1 and P2 have been used by China makers to mark look-alike blades that are a full 1/2" high, so they will not fit Empire holders. Shars sells such blades. Other sellers call them 1/2" high, but probably sell the correct height. Somma sells such blades. If the blade says Empire on it, it will surely fit. Watch out for the P3 blades. They come in two different heights, so you have to pay attention to the letter after the P3.

Here is Somma's list of available sizes with the Empire size numbers. Somma Tool Company - T-Type Cut-Off Blades H.S.S.

Over 30 years ago, I ordered a D10 cut off tool from Hardinge. It came in a Hardinge box, but the tool was marked Empire Tool Co. A36. I think later ones may be marked Hardinge. They are great holders and the Luers blades are wonderful. I also use them in the cut off holder for the Hardinge quick change tool post set.

If you want to buy some carbide tip .477 blades, I have more than I need. Don't recall the width offhand.

Larry

I believe the correct part number is X18, I don't recognize it with the letter "A" in front of it? In any case these 2 holders use different height blades. The X18 uses the .476 height blades and the A36 uses a .677 height blade. We sell both height blades in various H/S/S as well as carbide tipped and solid carbide.

Take a look at http://http://www.sommatool.com/catalog/cutting.tools/ttype_cutoff_blades.asp

too see more of what we offer

Somma Tool Company - Your Single Source for Screw Machine Tooling

The A36 is the base for the AX18 blade holder and the two parts, plus bolts, make up the Hardinge D-10 cut off holder. I have some X18 blade holders, and they are almost identical to the AX18, but have two more serrations, making them that much longer toward the lathe centerline. Empire may have made up the A36/AX18 assembly specially for Hardinge. I have several D10 holders, and they are marked in different ways. Some have the Empire name and the A36 and AX18 numbers. Some do not say Empire but do say A36 and AX18. Some of the blade holders have the Empire and Luers patent markings.

For those who do not know what a D10 is, I have added pictures. The most common use is on the DSM59 lever cross slide, as shown in the third picture. Note that Hardinge made an error in the catalog. They said the D10 uses P3 1/8" wide blades. They should have said P3S. The P3 is 11/16" high and will not fit this holder, but the P3S is .476" high..

Larry

Just to add some related info, the model 7 vertical cutoff slide for the DSM-/DV-59 takes P3N blades, rather than P3S or P3. The current GTN-2 insert retrofit for P3N blades is SGHS-17-2.

More on the topic at this 2012 thread, to which Larry contributed heavily.

L Vanice said:

I have seen lots of used blades that were wrecked by grinding the sides and/or top.
Larry

Click to expand...

The reasons for grinding the sides of the blade are many.
Generally the grind is tapered with the widest point at the cutting tip, this improves surface finish on the cutoff part, along with a careful top grind to deflect the chips away from the part being cut off helps even more with the surface finish.
Other applications use a wide blade (P3S) for stiffness and thinned out for a thin cut to provide more parts per foot of stock, the wide blade keeps blade deflection to a minimum.
And my favorite is to provide a shape to the cutoff end to eliminate a second operation. Forming the rounded head on an oval head screw as it is being cut off is an example.
The list goes on with custom grooving tools that have other features formed in one plunge.

Yes I have had to grind the top and sides to reduce the top rake provided by the X18 holder when my 0° holder is too little and the 7° of the X18 is too much.

So the bottom line here is in the eye of the beholder: "a ruined cutter" or "a custom cutter made as needed for the job at hand". A good assortment of "custom cutters" that are now raw material for your own custom needs can be a good starting place to learn from.

Just my 2¢

Bill

Empire also made a cutoff holder with a tapered wedge for locking the blade. I like that style better than the Luers type. With the Luers holder when you set the tool length it will try to pull the blade back to the last indentions the cams made in the blade no such problems with the Empire wedge.
Also those indentions on the bottom of the blade will keep it from sitting flush unless you hone off the raised portions.

Very informative. Most suppliers just list the nominal size of the P2 cut off tool as "1/2". The 0.477" or 12.1mm is critical to grip these tools firmly in the holder. I notice that the Hardinge rear tool post cut off tool incorporates something approaching a 7 degree rake just as the front tool post set up. (Do you think Hardinge installed enough socket head set screws in the front tool holder shown to secure the tooling? Wow, that should be enough clamping to rip up the mitered ways!)

I wish (for a number of mostly incorrect reasons) to fit my Empire P2 1/16 thick cut off tool horizontal on my rear tool post, which is a BXA post with a custom holder. I don't plan on relieving the top of the cut off tool. Understanding that both opinions about custom grinding, shaping the cut off tools have been expressed, what is the opinion on relieving the top of the P style cut off tool when used horizontally? My old KFR Omnipost used a horizontal (straight) tool post holder which I always used as a front configured cut off tool. I had mixed results with this setup. Sometimes things went well and I had a couple of disasters.

I truly appreciate the knowledge shared by the old school hands on here. It was neigh impossible to get any straight up information about the exact dimensions of the "P" series cut off tools. I was about to reach for my "Machinery's Handbook", but recalling that that book, at least later editions, is silent about collet dimensions, Practical Machinist came through! Thanks!

It is your money, but the second picture demonstrates the economic consequence of grinding anything but the end of a Luers blade.

The Hardinge multiple tool holders (the ones with lots of set screws) can hold several 3/8" tool bits and allow several different features to be cut with one stroke of the lever cross slide. I found it very useful for a number of parts I made in large quantities.

Larry

Thanks.

L Vanice said:

View attachment 233028 View attachment 233029 View attachment 233030

It is your money, but the second picture demonstrates the economic consequence of grinding anything but the end of a Luers blade.

The Hardinge multiple tool holders (the ones with lots of set screws) can hold several 3/8" tool bits and allow several different features to be cut with one stroke of the lever cross slide. I found it very useful for a number of parts I made in large quantities.

Larry

Click to expand...

I take it then that this pattern cut off tool does not require a 5 to 7 degree rake from horizontal. I have not had any success with the hollow ground tools when they were held in a raked holder. I can't vouch for the quality of the tool but I had a couple of serious blow ups. I have much less trouble with the level (no rake) KRF Ominpost when run from the front of the cross slide. However, I had one very serious blow up which has commanded me to never run a front mounted cut off tool, not worth the risk.

I do have experience with rear mounted cut off tool mounting and I have never had anything but good success. I used not to have a mount for the rear mounted cut off tool on my current lathe, but I have now rigged one. I do not like the stock Aloris pattern cut off tool mount because it has rake incorporated in it, which, to me, is not convenient to set up on the rear of the cross slide.

I have also come to trust the quality of the Empire brand of HSS cut off tools. I also have a great deal of respect for Hardinge products. Thanks for your comment.
Geoff

Thanks. Somewhere I have a set of plans for the KRF Ominpost system. These plans were sold by KRF back in the late '80's or early '90's or possibly earlier. When I bought my last KRF system in 2009, the owner, I assume, told me that the material they used was 4140 or 4150, chrome moly in any case that was case hardened to a depth of 0.006 to 0.008. I was somewhat surprised that the case was that shallow, but I can't fault the quality.

One of these days I will stumble across those plans. I can't recall the rationale of KRF publishing the plans. I understand by rumor that KRF were the initials of the three founders and that they got old (like all of us do, damnit) and let the company disappear into the sunset.

Just checked and Empire still has a website and they still show cut off tool holders. Their holders were less than the cost of building and heat treating do it your self, so the only ones I have built myself were for obscure screw machines, one Luers style and the other wedge lock.