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Hardinge Cataract lathe questions

Technical Ted

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 31, 2017
A few questions for you that are familiar with these gems. First, a short background. I'm a retired hobbyist. I already had a 15 and 13 inch lathes (along with 3 mills, SG, shaper, T&C grinder, etc.) but while making small model parts I thought it would be nice to have a small bench lathe to add to the arsenal. Saw this Cartaract with all the adders on craigslist and couldn't turn it down for the price.

I've done quite a bit of research and it looks like it is a model 37 out of the 1940's (it's got the newer compound slide hold down, not the single T bolt)??? It has the 3C spindle with pre-loaded ball bearings and twin V belt drive to the spindle. It's got 1" risers on the headstock and tailstock. I've included pictures for those interested. I got a lot of adders with it, including a 4C collet head with 45 collets, home made steady rest, milling attachment, tooling, chucks, faceplate, etc. etc.

Now for the quesions please:

1- Is something missing on the back, underside of the compound slide to help aid alignment on the ways? Or, do you simply push the slide up against the front dovetail and lock it down? I included a picture of the underside and there are some tapped holes there. Is something missing? If so, what?

2- What oil for the spindle bearings? I'm thinking Mobil #10 spindle oil??? I have some lighter Mobil spindle oil on hand as well for my grinders, but I'm thinking #10 for this?

3- I know it has pre-loaded ball bearings in the headstock. When I turn the spindle by hand it doesn't spin nice and freely like my Bridgeport mill spindle or the spindles on my grinders. Is this normal that it spins with some resistance?

I appreciate the help,
Ted
IMG_20191231_081231.jpgIMG_20191231_081258.jpgIMG_20191231_081315.jpgIMG_20191231_081521.jpgIMG_20191230_163702.jpg
 
1- Is something missing on the back, underside of the compound slide to help aid alignment on the ways? Or, do you simply push the slide up against the front dovetail and lock it down? I included a picture of the underside and there are some tapped holes there. Is something missing? If so, what?

2- What oil for the spindle bearings? I'm thinking Mobil #10 spindle oil??? I have some lighter Mobil spindle oil on hand as well for my grinders, but I'm thinking #10 for this?

3- I know it has pre-loaded ball bearings in the headstock. When I turn the spindle by hand it doesn't spin nice and freely like my Bridgeport mill spindle or the spindles on my grinders. Is this normal that it spins with some resistance?

1) The tapped holes are for a dovetail way installation, such as a DV-59. The grooves on the side allow you to use a split bed hold down. It may have been made during that transition period
when slides might have been used on split beds or dovetail beds, or like in my case, I machined the side grooves in a slide that did not have them. The markings around the tapped holes
imply this was originally a dovetail bed slide. But the short answer is, you just push the block on the front, to the front of the ways, and then tighten it down.

2) this is best left for the hardinge experts, but in my case these get synthetic mobile one engine oil, 0W20 grade. Expect a long discussion on that.

3) probably you are feeling the belts that drive via the countershaft. If you slack off the belts it should turn freely.

Nice machine. The extras are a real bonus. Much of that tooling is totally unobtainium.
 
Thanks for the reply! Great information.

I'm talking about rotating the spindle by hand with the belts disconnected. We had to break everything down to get it out of the PO basement. So, is the "tighter" rotational feeling normal or is something putting too much pre-load on the bearings? I see that when originally installed at the factory there is a gap between the two front bearings and when this is closed the pre-load is set. But, the PO removed the spindle to replace the two V belts so I know it was apart at some point. He even gave me some extra cork rings that he had because he said he needed to replace them when you put things back together.

Thanks for the help,
Ted
 
Thanks for the reply! Great information.

I'm talking about rotating the spindle by hand with the belts disconnected. We had to break everything down to get it out of the PO basement. So, is the "tighter" rotational feeling normal or is something putting too much pre-load on the bearings? I see that when originally installed at the factory there is a gap between the two front bearings and when this is closed the pre-load is set. But, the PO removed the spindle to replace the two V belts so I know it was apart at some point. He even gave me some extra cork rings that he had because he said he needed to replace them when you put things back together.

Thanks for the help,
Ted

The preload may be be slightly increased if there is one of those gaskets missing. Be sure they're in place.
 
The lathe headstock and bed were made about 1936-1939 and the year can be determined from the serial number on the back cover plate of the headstock. The tailstock was made after 1940 and the slide rest was made after 1945. As Jim said, the slide rest was converted from one made for a 9" dovetail bed lathe. Hardinge did sell slide rests and tailstocks factory made for either dovetail beds or split beds. These were separate products and would only fit one bed or the other. The dovetail bed was introduced in 1946, along with that style slide rest. Hardinge still made split bed bench lathes with open flat belt headstocks until some time in the 1950's.

That whole motor and drive setup under the bench is nothing like the original, but it probably works. The original drive was a two-speed motor on a hinged mount with 4-step pulley driving a 4-step pulley on the countershaft, which then drove the two V-belts up to the head. The head had two levers that operated two drum switches, one for for-brake-rev and one for low-off-high. There was a brake inside the headstock operated by one of the levers that are no longer there. The brake was spring-loaded through the plugged hole on top of the headstock and adjusted through the hole under the cover plate on the rear of the headstock.

Here is the patent for the underneath drive, applied for in 1934.
Patent Images

Lathe pictures:
Catarcat Lathes

Those spindles are difficult to properly remove and re-install, so the sensible thing is to replace the belts with link-type V-belting if the bearings are OK. The PO may have done some damage while working on the headstock. If the spindle has a smooth drag, it may be that the cork washers are tight on the spindle, which can cause overheating when running fast. Check for endplay on the spindle bearings with a .0001 indicator. It should be zero, which may mean they do not need to be replaced.

Larry
 
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Larry,

Jim told me the type of oil he uses (thanks Jim). What oil do you typically use? I have 3 light weight Mobil spindle oils on hand and am hoping to be able to use one of those.

I'm not trying to start a debate on which oils are best. Just wondering what different guys use. If something I have on hand is good, I'd like to use it and not stock another one.

Thanks,
Ted
 
3- I know it has pre-loaded ball bearings in the headstock. When I turn the spindle by hand it doesn't spin nice and freely like my Bridgeport mill spindle or the spindles on my grinders. Is this normal that it spins with some resistance?

Yes, for that head it's normal. If you look at the diagram for the enclosed headstock on Tony's site for Cataract lathes -
Catarcat Lathes
and scroll down about 1/4 the page to the diagram for the twin V belt headstock.
You'll see 4 cork seals along the spindle. They provide quite a bit of resistance themselves. Plus if you are talking about the head connected to the countershaft like mentioned by Jim, he explained the added resistance there.

If you are comparing the extra 4C head, then you are just talking about the headstock itself. The cork seals add a lot of resistance. Plus these lathes had a brake on the spindle (not shown in the diagram above) that is in the "on" position when the headstock is not mounted and when it is mounted and the handle is not in the "stop" position. Your lathe doesn't have the original handle, so I imagine someone has taken the brake out or somehow disabled it. The plug on top of the headstock has a spring under it that pushes on the brake to engage it. It pushes on the plug sticking out the top of the brake mechanism shown in my photo. Normally the "Forward", "Stop", "Reverse" handle lets the spring push while in the "Stop" but not in the other two positions. If you take off the cover on the side of your headstock, you should either see the original brake mechanism there or not. If it is there, the spring under the plug on the top should be gone. Or there should be something to keep the brake mechanism from being pushed down against the pulley hub.

Brake mechanism. It encloses the pulley hub behind the sheaves.
273947d1577813563-hardinge-cataract-lathe-questions-enclosed-head-brake.jpg


View with the brake installed.
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View without the brake installed.
273949d1577813590-hardinge-cataract-lathe-questions-enclosed-head-without-brake.jpg


Irby

P.S. I see you got a lot of answers while I was getting photos and typing...
 

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