Hardinge HLV-H brake question
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  1. #1
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    Default Hardinge HLV-H brake question

    Hi Guys, I decide to look into my brake system today to figure out whether if it only needed adjusting or more. After adjusting it and oiling it i find the brake to be working fine. Here's the problem. It only work with the manual switch. When the brake switch is on "brake on". The solenoid doesn't release when i engage the spindle. So i'm thinking a switch somewhere is not working but i cannot find any info anywhere. I have a the manuals as well but can't find anything. Can anyone help?

    Thanks

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    So it definitely works with the switch in manual "brake on" position, and the spindle fwd-reverse lever is working correctly? If that's the case, sounds like it may be the actual auto/manual switch, or a connection to/from. (this is from memory, there are schematics posted here (don't have them handy), but there's nothing fancy going on, if the "auto" switch is closed, when the spindle fwd/rev switch is actuated current flows thru those switches to the solenoid (thru a rectifier). Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by car2 View Post
    So it definitely works with the switch in manual "brake on" position, and the spindle fwd-reverse lever is working correctly? If that's the case, sounds like it may be the actual auto/manual switch, or a connection to/from. (this is from memory, there are schematics posted here (don't have them handy), but there's nothing fancy going on, if the "auto" switch is closed, when the spindle fwd/rev switch is actuated current flows thru those switches to the solenoid (thru a rectifier). Cheers
    It only work with the manual switch. When i put the switch on "brake on" and activate the lever in fwd or reverse. The brake does not disengage. My understand is. By putting the brake on with the switch. Then i should be able to engage the spindle lever fwd or reverse and it should deactivate automatically. But it doesn't. And I have no idea where to start. I assume there's a switch that signal the brake when you engage the spindle somewhere. Thanks

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    I suspect you are having a problem with your rotary cam switches. A black plastic cam in the control cabinet rotates right or left when you move the spindle lever. Underneath the cams are individual contacts that activate/deactivate coils to contactors. The particular contactor holding the brake on is not being switched out. I've been there, done that. A picture of the control cabinet would help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    I suspect you are having a problem with your rotary cam switches. A black plastic cam in the control cabinet rotates right or left when you move the spindle lever. Underneath the cams are individual contacts that activate/deactivate coils to contactors. The particular contactor holding the brake on is not being switched out. I've been there, done that. A picture of the control cabinet would help.
    Thanks so much Rons. That's what I believe as well. I open the electrical cover today and was watching as I was activating the brake via the switch and how the cam was activating little contacts. There's some sort of switch to the right of the cam i could see had something to do with it. I just don't know where to start inorder to troubleshoot what needs to be changed or repaired.

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    Here's a picture of a very similar electric panel as mine. Sorry, my lathe is 2 hours from my house. So I found something to work with. Where the red arrow point is what seems to be clicking when I activate the manual switch. And it does nothing when I engage the spindle.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails screen-shot-2018-05-11-8.13.59-pm.jpg  

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    On later model lathes (yours in an earlier version), according to the schematic, if the slow/fast spindle lever is working, that would eliminate the rotary/drum switches in the electrical box as the problem; if the brake is working in one switch position, that eliminates the solenoid and rectifier. Consequently the suggestion to check the switch on the control panel in suspect position (should be closed in that position), and any associated wiring. Yours may be different since it's an older version, but the panel selector switch and wiring in that position would be the first (and simple) thing to check in any event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johndifunk View Post
    Here's a picture of a very similar electric panel as mine. Sorry, my lathe is 2 hours from my house. So I found something to work with. Where the red arrow point is what seems to be clicking when I activate the manual switch. And it does nothing when I engage the spindle.
    In your picture:

    If you activate the manual switch for the brake and the "what seems to be clicking" part is moving up/down then that is called the contactor part. The rotary cam is to the upper left. Underneath the cam are the switches I mentioned. If you trace the wires from the brake on/off switch they should connect to the appropriate cam switch.

    The plunger switch can be removed by two screws. If they are like mine then they can be disassembled and cleaned/repaired. I have repaired mine by making new switch plungers (that's what I call them. Look at the way the old ones on the right got burnt from switch contact arcing. The little hole holds a brass pin which anchors the contact to the plunger. The new ones on the left are not yet shaped.

    dsc_0681.jpg

    I have used this picture more than once to explain to others what might be their problem.

    In the future it is better not to shove the lathe low/high lever hard. It appears to aggravate issues in the control box.

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    Quote Originally Posted by car2 View Post
    On later model lathes (yours in an earlier version), according to the schematic, if the slow/fast spindle lever is working, that would eliminate the rotary/drum switches in the electrical box as the problem; if the brake is working in one switch position, that eliminates the solenoid and rectifier. Consequently the suggestion to check the switch on the control panel in suspect position (should be closed in that position), and any associated wiring. Yours may be different since it's an older version, but the panel selector switch and wiring in that position would be the first (and simple) thing to check in any event.
    Thanks car2. I'm trying to make sense out of what you said. You wrote "Consequently the suggestion to check the switch on the control panel in suspect position (should be closed in that position)" What do you mean by "suspect position"? Also, what is the control panel? I'm sorry if I'm being a dumb a$$. Just wanting to make sure i understand what you are saying. If understand you well. 1. If I'm able to operate the brake with the on/off switch. It means the solenoid and rectifier is working. 2. If i'm able to engage the lathe with the slow/fast lever. It means the cam switch is working. Which would leave only one place to look. And that's where I'm a bit confuse. Thanks a bunch

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    In your picture:

    If you activate the manual switch for the brake and the "what seems to be clicking" part is moving up/down then that is called the contactor part. The rotary cam is to the upper left. Underneath the cam are the switches I mentioned. If you trace the wires from the brake on/off switch they should connect to the appropriate cam switch.

    The plunger switch can be removed by two screws. If they are like mine then they can be disassembled and cleaned/repaired. I have repaired mine by making new switch plungers (that's what I call them. Look at the way the old ones on the right got burnt from switch contact arcing. The little hole holds a brass pin which anchors the contact to the plunger. The new ones on the left are not yet shaped.

    dsc_0681.jpg

    I have used this picture more than once to explain to others what might be their problem.

    In the future it is better not to shove the lathe low/high lever hard. It appears to aggravate issues in the control box.
    Thanks rons. I will look into that next time i go to the shop. I do have the schematics for the lathe so i should be able to trace the wires by colors I hope. BTW, my lathe is a 1971. If that help.

    Thanks again

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    I think you will find the wires have number labels on them. Since you do have schematics you should be able to find the right cam in short order.

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    No problem John, I was just suggesting first to check that the selector switch (in the "pod" control box with the speed, coolant controls etc) for the "auto" (or "on" "brake" however it's labelled) brake function is working correctly when switched to that position (ie, that the switch is actually closing properly, and the wires to/from are intact and connected at the switch and where they terminate). (My original response was rather wordy....) Cheers.

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    I am having a similar issue with my HLV-H (1968). One difference, my brake is disengaging when in low speed, but not disengaging properly in high speed. The switch functions properly.

    I adjusted the cork away from the brake disc to perform this test: in low speed, the brake retracts instantly, but in high speed, the brake takes about 1 second to disengage, which causes the spindle to struggle to rotate when the cork is in place.

    I believe i found the cam which actuates the brake solenoid, however it is the same cam & solenoid for both high and low speed, which leads me to think that the contacts as shown by rons above, are working properly.

    Adjustment issue? Electrical issue?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smrtman5 View Post
    I adjusted the cork away from the brake disc to perform this test: in low speed, the brake retracts instantly, but in high speed, the brake takes about 1 second to disengage, which causes the spindle to struggle to rotate when the cork is in place.
    Do the high speed start again with the electrical cabinet door open. Watch to see which contactor is moving after 1 second. Trace back from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    Do the high speed start again with the electrical cabinet door open. Watch to see which contactor is moving after 1 second. Trace back from there.
    The same contactor is activated for both high and low speeds, which is activated by the same cam lobe on the cam shaft. During low speed the contactor activates quickly, but during high speed it stutters. I cannot think of a reason why the same contactor would act differently in this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smrtman5 View Post
    The same contactor is activated for both high and low speeds, which is activated by the same cam lobe on the cam shaft. During low speed the contactor activates quickly, but during high speed it stutters. I cannot think of a reason why the same contactor would act differently in this way.
    I just checked my brake. At low speed the brake pulls in immediately. In high speed the brake does have a 1/4 to 1/2 second time delay.
    Never noticed it before probably because I don't use the brake cork.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    I just checked my brake. At low speed the brake pulls in immediately. In high speed the brake does have a 1/4 to 1/2 second time delay.
    Never noticed it before probably because I don't use the brake cork.
    Very interesting. Either this delay is an artifact of the machine or we both have the same issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smrtman5 View Post
    Very interesting. Either this delay is an artifact of the machine or we both have the same issue.
    In high speed the main motor is drawing a different amount of current. Two speed motor. I think that may have something to do with it.

    I forgot to mention why I don't use the electrical brake. I use the black handwheel instead. Just cup my fingers on the inside a little and
    the spindle stops fast enough. There shouldn't be any danger of that delrin like plastic wheel breaking apart and then cutting my fingers.
    Unless a cosmic ray bolt came through the roof and made a impact on the wheel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    In high speed the main motor is drawing a different amount of current. Two speed motor. I think that may have something to do with it.

    I forgot to mention why I don't use the electrical brake. I use the black handwheel instead. Just cup my fingers on the inside a little and
    the spindle stops fast enough. There shouldn't be any danger of that delrin like plastic wheel breaking apart and then cutting my fingers.
    Unless a cosmic ray bolt came through the roof and made a impact on the wheel.
    That does make sense. I too have been slowing the machine down by hand, but I was doing a large run of parts recently and it was bothering me, so I adjusted the brake in a bit and traded one vexation for another.

    My plastic handwheel broke in transit so I replaced it. The new ones are black anodized aluminum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smrtman5 View Post
    That does make sense. I too have been slowing the machine down by hand, but I was doing a large run of parts recently and it was bothering me, so I adjusted the brake in a bit and traded one vexation for another.

    My plastic handwheel broke in transit so I replaced it. The new ones are black anodized aluminum.
    How did it brake, I mean break...

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