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Hardinge HLV-H Carriage Feed Pinion

A

AllenC

Aluminum
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Location
AZ
My HLV-H has a of of back lash between the pinion and the rack gear. Can the rack gear be moved clsoed to teh pinion or is the best approach to replace the pinion?

Where can I get a new of good used pinion?

What is involved in removing and replacing it?

Can the rack gear be flipped end for end to bring the unused portion closer to the headstock?

thanks,

Al
 
AllenC said:
My HLV-H has a of of back lash between the pinion and the rack gear. Can the rack gear be moved closer to the pinion or is the best approach to replace the pinion?
Click to expand...

No to the first part of your question. The only option is to replace the pinion gear (perhaps). There are two types of bearings that Hardinge used in the HLV-H - a plain sintered bronze bearing in all the earlier lathes, and a needle roller bearing in the later ones. Both types require a good shaft seal on the outside to keep them in good shape (the seal used is actually one made for an automotive U-joint), and therein lies the rub. Failure of the seal allows swarf into the bearing, which wears away at the pinion shaft. Replacing both the pinion gear and bearing brought my old 1965 HLV-H back to .010" total play again - about right for a well maintained lathe.

Where can I get a new of good used pinion?
Click to expand...

Most likely on your lathe. If you replace the bearing, you will most likely need to do something about the pinion gear shaft. The two most common methods of repairing the wear are metal spraying (depends on availability in your area) or turning down and silver soldering a sleeve onto the existing shaft, then finishing that to final dimension.

What is involved in removing and replacing it?
Click to expand...

Not bad, though you do need to remove the apron to do it. Pulling the motor first will lighten the weight. The manual has the directions. Bill Todd presented an outstanding rundown on the issues and solutions at Renovating a Hardinge HLV-H

Can the rack gear be flipped end for end to bring the unused portion closer to the headstock?
Click to expand...

It's been quite a while since I looked at that, and my recollection is that it was not feasible but I don't remember why not. Anyone on the board looked at that recently?

- Mike
 
Yes, as I recall the rack is couterbored for the socket head capscrews and cannot be used unless bored out...and when you do that there will be no more counterbore...just a hole straight thru...and I am not sure they will align when turned end for end.

the other part of the equation is that the rack gets about 1/100 th ( if that ) of the use the pinion gets....think about it....small rack of about 9 teeth going over a rack of about 300 teeth....of course the pinion is going to wear first.

good luck

Mick
 
Pinion shaft

My HLV-H is very early model so it is most likley bronze bearing.

Is the pinion shaft still available from Hardinge or elsewhere?

On the metal spray, were your eferring to building up the bearing area and reusing the gear or building up the gear and having it recut???

Thnaks for the help.

Allen
 
Alan,

In my experience with hardinge....It would be less expensive to have one made in the open market...as far as getting your shaft spray welded back to specs...I seriously doubt that is the problem....more likely the teeth are worn to a knife edge. that is why I tell you to look for someone to make it for you. unless you can find a good used one..much like hens teeth...hard to find to say the least.

the machine is so valuable no one would take one apart for the teeth being worn out...even if the headstock was worn out.....that indicates time and use and that means the carriage was moved back and forth.....a zillion times.

same results....worn out pinion...the reason the bushing is made from brass or oilite is to wear prior to the pinion shaft...I doubt if there is any wear on the shaft...the teeth are probably shot.....

there is a lot of people on this site who tinkers with making such things...if they will not make it for you....they will surely tell you how to make it yourself

Mick
 
Re Carriage Feed PInion

Hello, I had the same problem when I was renovating the carriage on my HLV-H. The pinion was badly worn ( and the rack) and ZMT in Topsham ( UK ) supplied a new " part pinion " to repair the old gear with. Half an inch or so has to be cut off the old gear, then bored out to accept the new "piece" of pinion, so to speak. I loctited mine in and it worked a treat. The pinion was about 45 UK pounds. They sold me a second hand rack, £10 and also remarked that they sometimes leave the dowels out of the rack, so that it can be adjusted to the pinion, to alter the backlash. I hope this is of some help. Ive done my lathe in adifferent colour to everyone else, so Ill post some pics when I can , for approval !!
Regards, Roger WilliamsIMG_7132.jpg
 
the reason the bushing is made from brass or Oilite is to wear prior to the pinion shaft...I doubt if there is any wear on the shaft...the teeth are probably shot.....
Click to expand...

Not in my experience. It would be nice if that theory was correct, but in practice the fine swarf particles wear both the shaft and bronze at almost the same rate - the shaft is definitely not hardened. The teeth on my original pinion are still pretty decent for a 1965 lathe, but the OD of the shaft wore away almost the same that the ID of the Oilite bushing opened up, at least compared with new parts. I bought a new pinion from Hardinge simply because at the time (1996-ish) it was only $85 or so.

On the metal spray, were your referring to building up the bearing area and reusing the gear, or building up the gear and having it recut???
Click to expand...

The latter, though the finish diameter is normally done with a grinding tool of some sort cobbled up in the compound. A decent metal spray outfit can add metal in .001" layers, so grinding doesn't amount to much - just cleaning up the OD to a surface finish that will promote long life with the transmission fluid lubricant. Bill Todd can fill you in on what he did with his - the metal sprayer may have finished it for him.

- Mike
 
MICK 1958 said:
there is a lot of people on this site who tinkers with making such things...if they will not make it for you....they will surely tell you how to make it yourself
Click to expand...

Hey, I represent that remark :crazy:. Yes, I have definitely tinkered with lathe pinions and the like.

Allen, I can cut you a new pinion, shaft, and/or bushings. You just need to tell me the specs -- DP, PA, and the various other dimensions. I would also need to have the originals on-hand to ensure high-fidelity copies.

Send PM or e-mail if interested.

Regards.

Finegrain
 
Thanks for the offer.

I am a loss as to where I can get the specs on the pinion gear. Does any of that exist on line anywhere?

thanks,

Allen
 
AllenC said:
Thanks for the offer.

I am a loss as to where I can get the specs on the pinion gear. Does any of that exist on line anywhere?

thanks,

Allen
Click to expand...



14 tooth, 22DP stub form, same as all the other HLV(-H) gears, except the ones in the Inch/mm transposing dials...

I replaced every single gear and shaft in the apron of the 1952 HLV that I'm rebuilding. I used 14.5DP gears for all of them except the rack pinion because I lucked onto a set of B&S cutters.

The rack pinion, I generated using a 20° HSS tool in the shaper:-
YouTube - Cutting a gear with the shaper

I really envy you lot and your nice (relatively) unharmed lathes:crazy:
 
Borrowed from Machinery's handbook:-


"Fellows Stub Tooth.—The system of stub gear teeth introduced by the Fellows Gear Shaper Co. is based upon the use of two diametral pitches. One diametral pitch, say, 8, is used as the basis for obtaining the dimensions for the addendum and dedendum, while another diametral pitch, say, 6, is used for obtaining the dimensions of the thickness of the
tooth, the number of teeth, and the pitch diameter. Teeth made according to this system are designated as 6⁄8 pitch, 12⁄14 pitch, etc., the numerator in this fraction indicating the pitch determining the thickness of the tooth and the number of teeth, and the denominator, the pitch determining the depth of the tooth. The clearance is made greater than in the ordinary
gear-tooth system and equals 0.25 ÷ denominator of the diametral pitch. The pressure
angle is 20 degrees."

In the case of Hardinge gears, the form is 22/29. So 22 DP gears with the addendum, dedendum and clearance of 29 DP gears.

Regards
Mark
 
Finegrain,

If you read the thread further you will see the gear specs listed by Mark Rand.

I know very little about cutting gears and will gladly turn to those of you with experience.

I am interested in replacing the gear and I am asking your price for making the pinion.

What material would you suggest for making the pinion that would provide long life?

i assume that the pin hole must be cross drilled on assembly of lthe two gears.

I live in the Phoenix AZ. area, where are you located?

Thanks,

Allen [email protected]
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Finegrain,

If you read the thread further you will see the gear specs listed by Mark Rand.

I know very little about cutting gears and will gladly turn to those of you with experience.

I am interested in replacing the gear and I am asking your price for making the pinion.

What material would you suggest for making the pinion that would provide long life?

i assume that the pin hole must be cross drilled on assembly of lthe two gears.

I live in the Phoenix AZ. area, where are you located?

Thanks,

Allen [email protected]
 
Hoping one of you gear experts can help me understand this better. I recently saw an actual Hardinge drawing for the Intermediate PF gear, PN LH0011021 for my 1969 HLV-H. This part has a 50 tooth gear on one end and a 26 tooth gear on the other. The callout for the 50 tooth gear reads as follows: "50 teeth, 22 pitch, 20 deg. PA, 0.116 whole depth crown shave 2.378 dia. over .0785 wire, -.001 including .003-.004 backlash..." the rest describes the concentricity requirements of the OD and PD to the bearing surface OD. The drawing does specify an OD of 2.364 +.000/-.002 and when I run the gear add-on in my CAD program it nails that OD, but draws the tooth depth at .2 inch. Not a big deal to change the gear depth, just want to understand this completely. Additionally, the whole depth for the 26 tooth gear is the same at 0.116. Am I correct in assuming the whole depth number establishes the "stub" portion, or denominator for 22/29 gears? Thanks,

Charlie
 
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