Hardinge HLV-H spindle markings?
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  1. #1
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    Default Hardinge HLV-H spindle markings?

    Hello all! My first post.

    I recently purchased a Hardinge HLV-H that I am rebuilding and had a quick question about the markings on the spindle and how they should be interpreted for the bearing install. I've done a lot of searching on the internets and have seen photos of the similar markings but nothing to indicate what they are for and how they should be used for new spindle bearing installation or repacking the old bearings and putting them back in. It was built in 1970 and is an HLV-H. I have read Gunners documentation and step by step guide which will prove to be very useful and is well done. I've also read AAFRadio's doc that I believe incorporated more specific HLV-H info into gunners doc. Here are some pics of the numbers I'm referring to. I have been meticulous about taking photos on how things are coming apart when disassembled but didn't capture how the bearings were aligned on the spindle and in the recess. My first go around with rebuilding a Hardinge so I dropped the ball but hopefully it is a good teaching moment for me as well as others.
    1.) Bearing spacer has 9-28 written and engraved on it.
    2.) Front bearing recess in the headstock has 9-28 engraved/etched just above the back wall of the bearing recess on a chamfer at about the 5 0'clock position if looking over the tailstock at it.
    3.) there is what I believe to be a 9 (could be a 6) located at the 12 o'clock position at the front of the headstock engraved/etched. Done the same as the one mentioned in #2 just a different position.
    4.) The spindle has 2 numbers etched into it. closest to the nose where the workpiece would be is a 9. with a line over top of it.
    5.) Near the end of the spindle closest to the collet closer handle would is an 8. that is inline with where the number in 4 is etched.
    6.) the matched bearings have the factory indicator marks showing how they should be aligned when assembled (zero with a line through it).
    they also have etched dots on the inner and outer races which I'm assuming should align with a point on the spindle shaft(inner race dot) and the headstock bearing recess (outer race dot)

    I'm guessing these etched numbers are some sort of run out or high spots on the spindle in microns probably?

    I'm just trying to get an idea of what should line up where during reassembly.

    Thanks for any advise that can be provided. I take pride in doing the job right and not just doing a rustoleum style restore so I may be overthinking it. Standing by for my thrashings!


    spindel-etching-left.jpg
    spindel-etching-right.jpg
    spacer.jpg
    bearing-recess.jpg
    bearing-indicator-marks.jpg
    Regards,
    //Chip

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    Having done a HC a few years ago, how did you get the bearings out without them pulling apart?
    Has the spacer in Pic 4 shifted from when you got the machine? The HC had a large taper pin to prevent movement on the outside spacer.
    If you replace the bearings, the location of the outside spacer may need to be shifted if the bearing height is not the same as what came out.
    I have suspected that the 9-28 is a lot / set number to keep the pairs together after grinding for length.
    Be sure to stone any burrs off the ends of inside spacer when assembling things.

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    Hi I would appreciate it if you could post a few more pictures of this process. I will have to tear down my hlvh at some point and knowledge like this is ,is invaluable .

    Did the bearjng slide out easily ? did you heat the headstock? I have replaced headstock bearings in other lathes but,like you, want to try to re-use the hlvh bearings ,so getting them out in one piece is a worry.

    Bill

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    I also suspect the 9-28 is a date or unit number. The 2 small engraving marks are the TIR of the bearing inner and outer races. Does the headstock have any marks ground into it? How about a few more photo's of both ends of the headstock casting. I would suspect the factory marked the head where the TIR of the casting is. In normal operations we put the marks 180 degree's to each other, but Hardinge was sneaky and assembled their headstocks in a secret clean room that visitors could not enter. I did a mini scraping class there and they gave me a tour plant and we walked by that room and it had big shades pulled down and they said that's the "secret room". I also have had first hand experienced trying to replace their bearings with off the shelf 9 precision bearings and have heard other rebuilders have tried and failed too.

    Hardinge told me the lap the inner race of the bearings bigger on purpose so you have to buy their bearings. The normal off the shelf bearings will press on harder and make the headstock get hot. I always sent the head back to them for bearing replacement. I have cleaned the OEM bearings and reinstalled them. Washed and rewashed the bearing grease out in tin coffee cans and clean lacquer thinner baths over and over until the thinner didn't change color. I repacked the bearings 30% with Mobil #28 redhorse grease. It and # 32 come in 1 pound tins. If I were you I would set the spindle on precision ground V blocks and using a millionths indicator and measure the TIR and see if it coincides with the markings you have now. They probably had a special tester to measure the headstock TIR. Have fun.....if I were you I would box up the head and send it back to Hardinge as They still rebuild them and re-grind the bed plates and bake on the nylon way liners on saddle bottoms. Build a wood box for shipment. I hope you have pulled out the BiJur metering units on the back side of the saddle that are under the black plate. The copper tubes get corroded in there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billtodd View Post
    Hi I would appreciate it if you could post a few more pictures of this process. I will have to tear down my hlvh at some point and knowledge like this is ,is invaluable .

    Did the bearjng slide out easily ? did you heat the headstock? I have replaced headstock bearings in other lathes but,like you, want to try to re-use the hlvh bearings ,so getting them out in one piece is a worry.

    Bill
    Bill I didn't find the new departure data but the NSK equivalent of that bearing can suffer up to 2 tonnes of axial load. Mine (HLV front pair) pressed off the spindle without raising the needle on my 10 ton press so I had no qualms at all about re-using them. Pulling the spindle assembly out didn't take much effort either.

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    That's probably a six etched there, not a nine.

    The line is typically drawn *under* the number when there is a chance for confusion.

    Could one observe the difference in surface finish between a bearing bore that was factory finished, vs
    one that had been custom lapped?

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    I don't remember about surface finish. I used to do service work for Milton Gramquist Company up her in MN who were the Hardinge distributor, so I talked to the Factory service desk a lot and I recall they are the ones who told me about the special bearings. They told me I could buy the new bearings from them, but they would not work as they lapped them during assembly. For me time was money and I believed them after I F'ked up a set. I use to rebuild other brand name spindles and never had issues. I learned my lesson on the Hardinges. Another spindle I sent back was a Pope Spindle as they used tapered ID bearings and they would expand as you ground the spacer to get proper thrust. If I was Chip I would clean the original bearings and put them back in...
    Last edited by Richard King; 12-30-2018 at 04:15 PM.

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    Interesting. So basically the gunner information is only partly correct. He always talked about installing brand new bearings.

    I know that bridgeport did specials as well. They used standard radial bearings in their M heads, and ground the races to
    run them in an approximation of angular contact mode. I still have a set of those from an M head rebuild. The ID
    and OD spacers for that stack were ground to be the same height.

    Jim

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    The UK rebuilders certainly fitted new bearings direct from the supplier. If I was rebuilding my own machine that I knew was deliberately tight on stock bearings I would OD lap the spindle so that they were no longer tight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Interesting. So basically the gunner information is only partly correct. He always talked about installing brand new bearings.

    I know that bridgeport did specials as well. They used standard radial bearings in their M heads, and ground the races to
    run them in an approximation of angular contact mode. I still have a set of those from an M head rebuild. The ID
    and OD spacers for that stack were ground to be the same height.

    Jim

    Bridgeport bought Fafnir bearings selected and ground for the application by Fafnir.
    The new Bridgeport bearings use sealed bearings sold as a pair.

    Bill

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    I had to laugh about Richard's comment on his Hardinge tour, how the spindle room was top secret. The same thing happened when I was there, "top secret spindle room". I guess I have been lucky when I have rebuilt these spindles, but they are still running as far as I know. Hardinge supplied the bearings but I can't remember if they were pre-greased.

    The thing about spindles, you need to take your time and mark everything as it comes apart if it doesn't have an orient position or key. Mark a 12 o'clock position on the spindle when you start then mark that position on every detail as you remove it. I use an automatic center punch or a carbide scribe to make a mark. Another thing is cleanliness, you can't be too careful keeping things clean, it's the key to any successful spindle rebuild. Oh, and take photos as things come apart, I suck at that and usually have to go back and turn a detail or two around. I use a bearing heater and heat lamps to warm things up, not a fan of tapping bearings on.

    I found some old photos of one I took apart but I don't remember many specifics about markings or bearings or much more than I did it. Oh well, it sucks to get old.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg   2.jpg   3.jpg   4.jpg   5.jpg  


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    More photos.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 6.jpg   7.jpg   8.jpg   9.jpg   10.jpg  


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    Here are a few more photos.

    My problem happens after I do a job a few times I think I "KNOW" how it all comes apart and goes back together so I skip the marking steps or photos. I recently rebuilt a CHNCII turret that hadn't indexed in years and because I have done several I didn't pay much attention when I took it apart. A week later the customer called and said the turret wasn't right. I had put the piston in upside down and the top plate wouldn't sit all the way down on the keys. I hate warranty work, lol.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 11.jpg   12.jpg   13.jpg  

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    I always used an inner race heater, but not the heat lamp. That's a super idea. Other Brother and I met and I have never seen someone with so many hand scrapers of different lengths. His company van had in the floor, above floor storage compartments as before he retired he worked for a national machine repair company. Gosiger I think? Darrel I don't recall you repair CNC electrics too? It sounds as if your like me, retired but swamped with work...lol :-) Rich

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    I used an inner race heater on mine this week and they just dropped straight on, luckily the heater got them hot enough just before it malfunctioned and tripped out all the power to my workshop

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    Good Evening all and Thank you very much for replying with so much information and guidance. I will try and answer all questions that folks have for me.

    (side bar) Richard - I sent an email to you as well about a scraping class you are offering in Texas. I may be interested depending on availability. Please check your spam folder.

    Hitandmiss, The way that I got the entire bearing out without it coming apart was the same way I convinced my wife to marry me - soft hands... Oh wait that was how my buddy married his wife, I used a dead blow hammer and a thick piece of folded up cardboard on the back of the shaft. I get our stories confused all the time. I tapped for a long time and was lucky enough to have it come out intact (I'm talking about the lathe now and not my courting tactics ). When the shaft began to come out I did loosen the 6 cap screws on the front about 10 turns each hoping that the shaft would unseat the bearing from the outer race a little bit. So I was essentially moving the bearing down the shaft a little, unscrewing the 6 bolts a little and removing the bearing from the headstock a little bit, back and forth. Making sure that there was always plenty of threads into the headstock so I didn't blow those out (again I was tapping pretty light anyway). When it got close to coming out I completely removed all the cap screws on the nose ring/plate and got the whole assembly out. At this point I inverted the shaft and began to tap on the nose ring/plate in a star pattern and the bearing slid off pretty easily.

    The rear bearings were excited to get out after being in there for close to 50 years and went all over the back of the tray on a rag that I had laid down to catch all 20 of them. The grease is like candle wax.

    The sleeve didnt have any pins holding it in place and it slid over the spindle shaft with zero play. Its not a interference fit but it is pretty damn close.

    Billtodd, The process is pretty easy actually but If I were in your shoes and knowing what I know I would have done a better job of marking how things are oriented with each other as well as to the headstock. I was so worried about not dinging anything up during this process that the pucker factor must have consumed all the blood flow to the part of my brain that manages process and function and I totally forgot to sharpie mark for alignment and reassembly. The rear race is still in so I will be able to mark that at the very least. Hardinge - 4, Chip - 1.
    I never needed any heat and they weren't too terribly tight relative to most bearings I've dealt with. Getting the rear pulley nut off was slightly awkward because the nut is inside the headstock a little bit so the pin wrench isn't as parallel to the nut as one would like but that was an easy obstacle.

    Jim Rozen, Those are my exact thoughts too when it comes to the line being under the number in standard practice for 6's an 9's but the reason I brought that up was because of the decimal point location.

    Richard King, I'm going to soak the bearings and get them cleaned up and repack them as you suggest if I don't see any sort of damage. I will be putting them back in the same side of the headstock they were removed from. I just hope that the orientation I put them on the shaft is correct. I cant find the Mobil 28 red horse or Mobile 32 red horse grease folks keep mentioning for repacking the bearings. Has the name changed or something? I've literally spent over an hour researching that naming convention for the grease and cant find it anywhere. Is it the same as the HSC 32 by mobil? Is the Mobil 28 the Aviation grease that mobil has? I don't want to make another novice mistake and put the wrong grease in after all this.

    Other Brother, I agree 100% with your statement and procedures when dissembling and typically follow all of what you said to a T. I have more pictures of parts to this lathe as we speak then of my kids. I literally took more pictures of my lathe parts as they came off on christmas than of my children lol. No Selfies though, I'm not that selfish of a father Merry Christmas to me!


    Some thoughts! Maybe there were a couple of interns screwing around with an etching pen behind the curtains and decided to mess with future customers/rebuilders and just put weird random markings that were non descriptive but looked pretty important to the naked eye. laughing while etching them in saying "This is gonna totally mess with who ever repairs this thing in 2018. lol.. lol". Quick story similar to that. My brother use to bottle apple juice and would lift the jug up off the conveyor and fill it completely to the top and cap it. - He did this for 8 hours a day so the boredom got to him as a 17 year old - His thought was the greedy people that would pick the fullest jug would then go home and when they opened the container the counter would be pushing up on the bottom of the jug and cause juice to run onto their counter. lol.

    Here are some more pics - It appears that there are two etched lines inside the headstock - looking in from the tailstock one closest to the front is at the 9 o'clock pos and there is one at the rear at the 7 o'clock pos. Not sure if these have any relevance or are there from a previous manufacturing process. They are purposefully etched though.
    Below: Looking in from the collet closer handle side of the tailstock etched line around the 7 o'clock pos.
    marking-inside-headstock-rear.jpg

    Below: Looking into the headstock from the tailstock etched line at the 9 o'clock pos.
    marking-inside-headstock-front.jpg


    Thanks,
    //Chip

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    Richard,
    I will look into picking up/pricing a millionths indicator and throw this on my granite surface plate and do some measurements to see if I find anything. I'm not sure it will be much good considering that the environment alone can impact measurements... I have to keep in mind that this is a hobby machine and even if I just throw the bearings back on and in line as designed by the manufacturer the machine will probably be able to reach far beyond my abilities (Perfection is the biggest enemy of close enough).

    I did remove the metering units and they did have lots of crud in them but not much corrosion. I'm going to order some of those new metering dudes. I'm going to use Hardinge rebuild as a contingency if I get myself painted in a corner. I have an email out to Hardinge about the markings as well to see if I can get some guidance from the Oracles there. Thanks again for your time in this matter it is truly appreciated and I'm thankful.
    Regards,
    //Chip

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    Happy New Year!

    I figured it out. Using an 8X magnifying glass, 3 cans or so of beer and some CSI I was able to determine what most of the marks mean and how they line up with one another. I was looking at the inner and outer races under an 8X magnifying glass and I noticed a couple of places where the metal was "stained". I then started looking at the spindle itself and was able to find the exact spots where the stains mirrored each of the surfaces. It sounds simple enough but it actually took me about an hour to get to a point where I was 100% confident on the orientation. The bearing races (inner and outer) have an etched dot that can be seen in the original post pics. These etched dots are aligned within the headstock and to the spindle as follows:

    - The dot on the outer race is at the 12 o'clock position in relation to the headstock.
    - The dot on the inner race is at the same location as the key way on the spindle.

    The numbers etched into the spindle don't really line up with any of the markings on the bearings. It appears that Hardinge used its own marking, the etched dot, to orient the bearings instead of using the factory markings (circle with verticle line thru it) for aligning the matched bearings on the spindle. I'm guessing that this was possibly done due to changes that occurred from lapping at the factory.?.? But my more gooder guess would be they placed the factory markings from the bearing manufacture on the spindle where they would allow for the best performance and placed the etched dots at the 12 o'clock positions to stream line the assembly process as well as make it less likely to mount the bearings in the wrong orientation.

    Can someone place a pic or a link to the Mobil 28 red horse and or the Mobile 32 red horse grease? I cant find the grease folks keep mentioning for repacking the bearings. Has the name changed or something? I've literally spent over an hour researching that naming convention for the grease and cant find it anywhere. Is it the same as the HSC 32 by mobil? Is the Mobil 28 the Aviation grease that mobil has?

    Thanks to everyone who provided some guidance.

    Regards,
    //Chip

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chipp View Post

    Can someone place a pic or a link to the Mobil 28 red horse and or the Mobile 32 red horse grease? I cant find the grease folks keep mentioning for repacking the bearings. Has the name changed or something? I've literally spent over an hour researching that naming convention for the grease and cant find it anywhere. Is it the same as the HSC 32 by mobil? Is the Mobil 28 the Aviation grease that mobil has?
    I would limit my searches to the Kluber range of greases for the bearings. there's plenty of threads here that specify the correct grade to use for spindle bearings. At least that's where I would start if I were looking to rebuild a Hardinge spindle.

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    Default Mobil 28

    Don't know if this helps (it is red inside BTW)

    OT: About a decade ago a new neighbour moved in next door but one. He turned out to be an absolute nightmare , but before things deteriated into a legal fight over his running-all-night hot-tub, he actually gave me this tin of grease . Proving that nobody is a complete arse-hole (even though he tried his best!)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails mobil-28-c.jpg   mobil-28-b.jpg   mobil-28-.jpg  


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