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Hardinge HLV-H (used 1982)

thomzer

Plastic
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Cranberry Township, PA
This is a great forum!
Can any one direct me on where to find a great deal on a rotary phase converter (new or used) then on a transformer which will be used to run my 1.5HP 440V 3 phase Hardinge?
I only have 220V single phase to start with.
Has anyone built their own rotary phase converter? I am not an electrical engieer but have a "little" knowledge of electricity. Must I take in account the h/p rating of the feed and pump motors even when they are not actually operating at start up.
Thanks in advance for your input.
 
The coolant pump motor is likely under 1/4 HP.

The feed motor is a compound-wound dc machine in those HLV-Hs I am familiar with, and these are 1/50 HP, give or take, and are driven off of single-phase ac.

So, neglect the feed motor, and add the drive motor HP and the coolant motor HP (assuming that the coolant pump motor is three-phase, which it is ona 10EE) and you come up with 1.75 HP.

A well balanced 2 HP converter could likely supply this configuration.

A 3 HP converter could surely supply this configuration.

You need 440 volts? That can easily be obtained from a 240:480 "dry type" transformer, sized about 1 KVA per HP of load.

So, say you get a 3 KVA 240:480 single-phase transformer and a 3 HP 208-240/480 three-phase motor and some caps, about 33 microfarads/HP at 240 volts, which translates to about 8.25 microfarads/HP at 480 volts, and you build a converter using some of the very good ideas already mentioned.

The caps for a 240 converter should be rated 370 volts; those for a 480 converter should be rated 740 volts.
 
Peter covered your basic question extremely well, as always. Just to offer some additional points for thought, I often hear the HLV-H machines rated at 1.5 hp, but a careful reading of the manual and wiring diagram on mine indicates ratings of 1 hp in high range and 1/2 hp in the low speed range. That assumes full torque loading, which only occurs briefly when you are hogging a 10" stainless steel ring at a really aggressive feed rate. :) I think the mixup occurs because the motor manufacturer (GE for mine) puts 1/.5hp on the motor nameplate. A 1 hp VFD runs mine quite well, and that takes into account the expected derating since it is a nominal 3 phase input model.

The wiring diagram contained in the door of the "electrics" shows the coolant pump to be rated at 1/10 hp. The speed change motor is 1/20 hp, and the power feed motor is 1/15 hp. BTW, after much research, there is no way I would ever try to swap one of the spindle drive motors for a general purpose motor with a lower voltage. The fact that they are balanced to .0005 ounces is one of the carefully planned contributors to the mirror finish possible with the Hardinge lathe.

If you don't wish to 'build it yourself', an equally viable option is picking up a 440v VFD like I did. There is a company selling brand new GE AV-300i 440v VFDs on the bay at the moment for about the same order of magnitude you can spend on capacitors and other parts to put together a rotary unless you buy used parts. I just bought a 2hp model at a "buy it now" price of $90 simply to have a spare, though I think the current price is somewhere around $165. These units sell about ten times that from GE... They are 3 phase input, so some derating is necessary. The seller asked if I wanted some more, as he had about twenty to sell, and sounds like he would negotiate. The 440/480v units typically go quite reasonably throughout the year, though.

I initially picked up a 3kVA 240/480v transformer off the bay for $25, but have since found a 2 kVA 'lighting' transformer for $10 at a hamfest, so they are available quite reasonably. I ended up selling my rotary converter recently - the sound of silence is delightful!

There are some other advantages in using a VFD. One is its ability to provide a virtual back gear for the Hardinge. If you need to turn something *really* slowly, it's a cinch with the VFD. You can get 30 rpm with a 15 Hz drive frequency, though I would be careful about running it that slow for more than a brief period with the unventilated drive motor. (That lack of a back gear has been a perennial complaint about the Hardinge.) Another advantage (at least with modern units like the GE AV-300 and AF-300) is the delicate treatment of the drive motor they offer. They constantly monitor the operating parameters of the motor and treat it with kid gloves, shutting it down at the slightest deviation from normal operating parameters. Hard to get that from a rotary converter, and given replacement cost, I'd like that motor to be around for a looooong time. :)

Best regards,
Mike
 
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your expert replies, this helped!
One more thing though...if I may. Has anyone had any experience in replacing the spindle bearings on a Hardinge HLV-H? I went to see one under power yesterday. I ran the machine @ 3000RPM for around 15 minutes and the steel (flange?) located at the nose spindle not only warmed but got pretty HOT! After reducing RPM to about 2000 this flange cooled a bit, but as soon as I increased the RPM again it got hot. With 20 years experience manufacturuing "small" parts on HLV's, I found that the head stock and (front bearing flange?) typically only warm up after hours of high RPM operation. I think the bearings in this machine are bad. Tomorrow I am calling Hardinge for the bearings costs. Is replacing these bearings a job that one recommends and how time consuming it is. I realize that experiece doing this type of thing helps but I've only replaced spindle bearings on bridgeport mills but not on a Hardinge lathe. Thanks again.
 
Re: bearing replacements in HLVs ...

Somewhere in Hardinge's docs I read that certain series machines (most probably the early examples with low serial numbers) have to have the headstock returned to Hardinge for spindle service.

The comment reads ... "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO REMOVE THE HEADSTOCK SPINDLE ON THESE MACHINES" ... yes, and in all caps and in bold face, too.
 
Ah yes...spindle bearing replacement. A wonderful subject, warming the cockles of one's heart (whatever those are.) I wouldn't worry about the heating at 3,000 rpm. You would probably have another five years of life on it. Mine was emitting groaning noises at 200rpm and still turning out mirror finish work (at those low speeds.)

First off, don't get the bearings from Hardinge. I found SNFA equivalents for the pricey NSK bearings at Alpine Bearing in Boston (1-800-225-4334) for $306 a matched pair, but be sure to ask for JC and say that John from Rapidturn sent you. (I don't get anything whatsoever from this, but I still enormously appreciate the recommendation.)

Secondly, "Gunner Asche" (Mark Wieber) wrote an excellent description of the process on RCM a few years ago. There were some things that weren't clear to me so after a number of interchanges with Mark, I rewrote the description into a 'simple' 66 step FAQ sort of amalgam that is pointed toward the HLV-H. I posted it at the URL below if you're interested. Not for the faint of heart - I took two days to do it because I had the time, but at least the cost of the bearings was all that I needed.

http://members.cox.net/mymhh/HLV-H%20bearing%20replacement.htm

- Mike
 
To Thomzer,
Hi, my first time on this site.I have been rebuilding Hardinge toolroom lathes for 25 years now, and my Dad for a lot longer. Our customers are throughout the country.
Replacing spindle bearings on an HLV-H may seem straightforward, but has some risks. Namely that if not done properly, a good set of bearings goes to waste. Thru the years we have used Bardon, Fafnir, SKF, Koyo, and NHBB. NHBB seem pretty good. Proper grease a must.Spindle prep. Let me know how you did.
 
Hi Paul,
Thank you for your reply.
The person that I bought my Hardinge from contacted Hardinge service and he was told that one reason the front flange could be heating up is because the rear spindle nut might have been inadvertantly tightened too much. He loosened it and retightened, not as tight as before though. He said the flange did not heat up any more after running @ 3000RPM. Or, before I tried out the machine, it had been sitting for quite some time and when I ran it, I pretty much cranked it up to 2000RPM then a few minutes later increased it to 3000RPM and ran it there, off & on for about 45 minutes.
I believe in this guy's integrity so I will check the machine when it gets here. In your experience, does the rear spindle nut theory sound reasonable?
Thank you.

[This message has been edited by thomzer (edited 02-28-2003).]
 
Hi Thomzer,
The rear nut theory I believe is incorrect. The bearings have a light preload built into them. Hence the DL, duplex light, designation on the brgs. You cannot overtighten the spindle bearings with only a normal amount of torque to the nut. The reason the spindle didn't heat up as much is well, because they are loose. More so, there probably is some coolant swarf or thin long metal chips that got caught in the labrynth front seal.Don't use an air hose as that will force stuff where gravity won't. Try an ever so thin shim and draw it around the small clearance between the bearing front flange and cap. Run the spindle in reverse and sometimes the grease will shift a little and quiet the noise, if any. The factory is expensive to replace the brgs. We can help if you have the need. Let me know. Paul
 








 
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