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Hardinge HLV - Looking for advice on a 2 axis DRO

marcsO

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I'm considering fitting a good quality DRO to my HLV and wanted to ask if anyone has any advice or suggestions as to what might be good and what to avoid too!

I've only started to look about and Heidenhain and Newall are makes which seem to be will respected and reliable, thoughts on models etc? Also looking for what rail lengths are best for X & Y. I believe fitting the rails can be a challenge and I'm keen to avoid an installation that looks like an afterthought so will need to consider all this in the plans.

Is second hand an option too?

Hopefully with your expertise you can guide a novice like me to a good solution :-)

marcs
 
Heidenhain and Newall are, up to a point, trading on past reputation as being rugged, robust and reliable in all day every day industrial use. They still are.
Newall is about as close to bullet proof as you can get in the real world. Hedenhain aren't far behind but, being an optical scale, they cannot be totally, perfectly, sealed so eventually the scale will get contaminated causing problems. In the real world scale contamination with Heidenhain is probably only a potential factor when buying used ex-industry.

But you pay a serious premium for this quality.

Generally the mid range imports offer sufficiently similar performance and functions for a lot less money with adequate durability. But buy from a reliable, local supplier so you have support. Getting a look alike of AliBaba, E-Bay et al is a crap shoot and, objectively, the saving in real ££ isn't worth the risk. The 10 (ish) year old Sino on my Bridgeport is still going strong but I'm careful where I point coolant and keep it clean.

Many of the next level up brands, such as Fagor, have flat screen displays rather than simple numeric enabling more sophisticated use. I'm unconvinced as to the value of such refinements on a lathe.

Fundamental issue is always fitting the cross-slide scale where it doesn't get in the way, is unlikely to be damaged and doesn't restrict the work envelope. Optical scales are inevitably quite large. Newall aren't that much smaller so you need to find something approaching 1" x 1 1/2" to fit them without getting in the way. I've held off on fitting DROs to my Smart & Brown 1024 and P&W Model B because conventional scales on both are impossibly intrusive in restricting how close the cross slide can get to the tailstock.

The new compact magnetic scales seem to be very effective. Many folk have managed to get them inside the cross-slide which gives a lot of protection and minimal interference. I may go that way. However there seem to be some concerns about long term reliability and effects of magnetic material contamination. Probably nothing fundamental as Renishaw have been using such scales for many years and they don't mess around.

The one killer feature which nobody seems to offer that would make me go and buy "right now" is the ability to easily program multiple stop points with an output at zero that could be wired into the lathe controls to stop the feed. Effectively the electronic equivalent of a multi-position turret bed stop. ESM-I offered a system that could be programmed with 6 stop points but very much a faff to set up. Being able to drive an electronic leadscrew system would be real nice too.

Clive
 
Hi Marcs

Just done the costings and will be committing to a Newall system in the New Year for my HLV-H.

Not cheap but having fitted a Newall 3 axis system to my Deckel FP2 I'm really happy with the product.

Like you I was thinking just a 2 axis but now I'm going to buy a 3 axis display unit with two scales. A "future" (maybe) plan to fit the third scale to the tailstock.

Food for though??

Stay safe

:typing::cheers:John
 
Cheers Clive for the in depth info, very informative and good advice. John good point on the 2 v 3 axis readout unit as this allows you to use the unit for another machine (mill etc) later or like you say add the tailstock. Any thoughts on the Spherosyn v the Microsyn rails for a lathe application from Newall?

marcs
 
When you have made your choice, but before buying, I suggest faking up the mounts and scales from suitable offcut material (wood , mdf or whatever will be fine) and verifying that nothing gets in the way when doing the sort of jobs you do.

Measurements, drawings et al are all well and good but a mock up is the only way to be sure. Tends to be vocabulary enhancing when you find that your carefully drawn out scheme doesn't actually fit! How do I know?

Quickly faked up picture on the P&W Model B to illustrate the potential problem of tailstock body to cross slide clearance. Normal use tailstock poppet travel is 5 inches. That sort of set up needs 4" extension, add a DRO scale and you are up towards 6" extension. That would be no great issue in practice as the P&W tailstock poppet is almost a foot long and the rising wedge lock is very secure. But not ideal.

CSld-TStc Clearance PM.jpg

Also advisable to verify that your proposed fitment doesn't cover up anything you need to get at. My Smart & Brown 1024 cross slide has conventional screw type gib adjusters on the tailstock side so fitting a scale that side means it has to be removed to adjust the gib. Ooops. Clearance over the saddle lock and apron filler plugs would be feeler gauge level too.
 
Clive again a good call and will do this for sure, may even get my friend to 3D print a few bits to see :-)

marcs
 
Hi Marcs

I fitted Microsyn on the Deckel and I'm going for the same on the Hardinge. Beauty of the Microsyn on the cross slide is that it only needs to be mounted/supported at one end with it being a short length. Worth downloading the Newall mounting guide :)

John :typing:
 
I have a 2 axis Newall on my HLV, and am very happy with it. Even though the lathe is 60 years old, using the DRO and with a lot of care I can still hold a few tenths if really needed. I wouldn't look at another brand personally. I have a DP1200 (I think) on my Bridgeport, and really love it.
Best wishes,
Michael
 
John nice info, just read the manual and saw the reference to single end mounting which as you say will help and keep things neat, going to get the dims sorted and mock up some mounting options before pressing the button as its not a cheap product so going to make sure I have things covered 100%. Lucky man a Deckel, keeping a look out for DP1 early model without all the huge external electronics boxes as one of these or a Schaublin 13 is my ideal mill, just have to hope some become available as the option is to travel to Germany to some auctions where they seem to have a decent selection of used machines out there. - once CV19 has got the boot that is!

Marc
 
Michael mine is a similar age so if you have time some pics of the installation would be very welcome :)

Marc
 
Hello Marc,
Always nice to meet another HLV owner. A great machine in my experience. Mine is a later model, not terribly long before the HLV-H was born I think. It has the HLV-H variable speed drive with the switches up top. It looks like an HLV-H in most respects, but the spindle lock is on the rear. A narrow bed, though.

I am marooned in Utah for the covid duration, and the lathe is in the Bay Area. If you are really interested, I am probably going back for a short trip in mid January, and would be happy to take pics for you. I presume you want the DRO installation?

The cross-slide scales are mounted in front of the slide. They are pretty low profile, but I do have to watch it when running a chuck with the jaws fairly wide open. This mounting is not optimal, but the oiler and dovetail adjustments are on the tailstock side of the cross-slide, so I chose to do it this way. I think it could be installed on the tailstock side with just a bit more cleverness than I was feeling up to at the time.

The carriage scale are mounted on the back side from the operator. This was pretty easy as I recall, and is out of the way unless you have a taper attachment. I do not.

Installing the Newall scales is really pretty simple. They supply a set of post-like mounting pieces which have the required degrees of freedom to align the scales, and which are very simple to install. The scales are half inch (ish...) diameter rods, and getting the reader mounted and aligned with the scales is straightforward. In other words, it is much less of a PITA than optical scales, and MUCH more robust WRT fluids, chips, etc. That said, there is a fair amount of fiddling around to figure out the best place to mount things, and then you have to drill and tap holes in your precious baby to mount the mounts. Nothing anyone on this forum cannot manage.

let me know if you want some pics when I get back to my shop in mid January (if the idiots in California will wear masks and social distance, etc, so the current explosion in new cases will go down).

All the best,
Michael
 
Michael any info or pics of your installation would be very welcome.

I'm sure there are lots of ways to fit them so seeing how people have done their installations will be super useful. I'm keen to make sure the installation is neat, compact, accessible and works with the lathe so its not compromised in functionality (ideally). Having added a control panel and spent a lot of time on this for me its important to try to ensure the Hardy remains in appearance close to the 'original' look.

Its a big learning curve for me as its really my first venture into a 'proper' lathe and plan to slowly make more and more parts growing the workshop tools to include a mill too.

If there are any UK members out there who know of a 'needs fixing up' Schaublin 13 or Deckel FP1 I'm looking out for one.

Thank you Michael, keep safe and look forward to any info etc when you are able to make the trip to the workshop.

Marc
 
Have it in the back of your mind that Newalls are 10um scales standard. If you want 5um scales, you will need to ensure you buy Microsyn 5s for them.

Personally, I have not been super impressed with Newall since the factory moved. But I am not their biggest fan to begin with.

Jon
 
Luckily my HLV-H had a Acu-Rite on it when I purchased it. Have your feed rates displayed on the readout is handy feature. Another handy feature is the calculator, it will calculate SFM as well as regular calculator functions.

Purchased a Newall to replace an out dated dro on my mill, I have been disappointed with since I installed the unit.
 
growing the workshop tools to include a mill too.

If there are any UK members out there who know of a 'needs fixing up' Schaublin 13 or Deckel FP1 I'm looking out for one.

Good hunting!

Meanwhile...

UK has had some right useful mills of their own, too. Not sure if they are as impressive as to work as they are to appearance - many having had serious levels of "TLC" bestowed on them... but still... you DID say "fixing up?

Tom Senior Machine Tools

What my Burke # 4 might have grown up to be, had it not been so malnourished in infancy?

:D
 
Watching with interest - I'm UK based and I've just about finished cleaning up my HLV (not -H) and I'm thinking about what DRO to fit. From what I've seen, it's easy to fit to the rear, but that stops you using the taper attachment. M-DRO can supply the newall kit for a hardinge. I assume its for an HLV-H though so I'm not sure if its a direct fit. I'm also the proud owner of a couple of deckels - if you're anywhere near Leicester you're welcome to come and have a look :) Final thing - does anyone know of a source of chuck backplates for hardinges apart from PBA? Given how common a lathe they are I can't believe its so hard to find a backplate!
 
.. does anyone know of a source of chuck backplates for hardinges apart from PBA? Given how common a lathe they are I can't believe its so hard to find a backplate!

I've no klew which one the HLV even utilized?

My Hardinge 6" magnetic chuck - "guts" may have come from Walker? - arrived with D1-3, fit right up to the 10EE.

The back off the 2-Jaw was Hardinge threaded nose. I think I still have it somewhere?

The other was the Hardinge taper, proprietary only for lack of interest. ISTR Hardinge HAD offered to waive royalties to other makers who would adopt it, but got few takers? Or even NONE?

Find all the Hardinge taper ones yah like. Just go searching for a Sjogren, Rubberflex, or such on an "A", "L" or "D1" mount.

Everything that turns-up will be on Hardinge taper instead! Pull the back & re-sell the goods as flat-back! They'll find a bigger market, sell faster and more dearly.

And you have a "free" backplate! First-rate quality, too.

:D
 
Hi I'm sure you are right and have seen a few Tom Senior machines come up on various forums, I bet they are decent and good machines and will be way above anything I'm capable of doing machining wise but for me I'm into function, form and looks, and just don't like mills that look like they have been built out of a box of spare parts stacked one on top of the other. Don't get me wrong there are some outstanding machines out there just not for me.....
 
Hi fellow HLV owner, good to see you are looking into a DRO.
I'm sure a Newall Microsyn could actually fit on the front of the main bed on the HLV to avoid messing up the rear and potential taper fit accessory, having looked at the lathe closer yesterday I am going to look to fit the carbon rod under the lead screw and the pickup potentially fitted on the main carriage either on one end or on the back totally out of sight - this may be the least accessible but depends on how I make the custom bracket. All in the head now so will post info as it unfolds.
I would love to see the Deckels but it would be torture to see and not have so maybe one day when I have one of my own - thanks for the offer tho :)

marc
 
I've also had some interesting journeys re the chucks, have found a 4 jaw and a 3 jaw now with the right taper mount, the 3 jaw is a UK branded unit and is a purpose made unit with the taper built in so to speak, the 4 jaw has the Hardinge taper fitted backplate, yes hard to find especially the 3 jaw but think I have a spare back plate somewhere so if I can did it out will post info.

marc
 








 
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