Hardinge HLV spindle bearing replacement - advice/help

marcsO · Apr 13, 2021

Hi have a nice HLV which when working on turning down a length of rod using a live centre started to make some noises, the more pressure applied from the live centre induced a louder noise from just behind the chuck at the front of the headstock. I removed the part and did checks under various speeds with no load or cutting process, the noise still remains and when you put your ear to the headstock where the taper chuck fitting is there is a distinct 'unhappy metallic sound'.
I've emailed and had a reply from Paul at Babin who is so very helpful even though I live in the UK. He said the HLV spindle bearing are pre=loaded and should deal with any loads applied from a live centre but it seems the noise is from the nose section of the headstock and I can only deduce its bearing issues.
If anyone has had similar or believes there may be other factors please let me know.

If the bearing does need replacing I will need some help with exactly how to remove the spindle unit, I've seen a few online posts (one from csparks.com)and know its a tricky little job. Also require details on the bearings, where maybe to source them (front and back units as will do both).

Any pointers and assistance welcome

Thankyou (sorry the pics are not portrait but cannot find a way to alter the settings - the pictures are the right way round when loaded!)

Richard King · Apr 13, 2021

There is a company in England that used to rebuild Hardinge's. I will have to do some research to find them. They also made some machines in England. Does your machine have a tag that says Made in USA or England? Those spindles made in the USA are specially made. The spindle ID was ground a few thousands bigger, so if you bought precision bearings of the shelf they got hot. Hardinge ground or ordered the bearings from the Bearing company ground with a bigger ID. Hardinge bearings have a few extra numbers engraved in them. Hardinge USA made machines have a great manual and it tells you how to remove the headstock belt and how to remove the Headstock off the bed plate. I have taken the spindle apart and will have to look for a manual. I used to send the heads back to Hardinge and had them rebuild them. I will look for the UK company name. Those guy's retired, but they may have some idea's. You will need to have the serial number too. Those bearings use a special grease too...and a special amount of grease too. Your machine looks pretty nice. Is that original? It maybe a loose bearing retainer nut maybe and an easy fix, but I suspect the bearing is shot. Does it have a push in button on the back that locks the spindle? Could that be rubbing? They have a detent ball and spring, maybe the spring broke or it stuck...? I'll look for info and write later. Rich

Billtodd · Apr 13, 2021

I think you mean ZMT , Richard. Unfortunately they went out of business a few years ago.

I believe HLVs have the drive belt between the bearings , unlike the HLV-H , which means the spindle has to be pulled to change belts. If so, it is possible the last belts change left something loose (wishful thinking perhaps) but it might also mean that pulling the spindle is not too traumatic.

Edit: yes spindle has to be pulled see p19 of manual here
Hardinge HLV-BK Operator's Manual 1958.pdf - Google Drive

Stradbash · Apr 13, 2021

You’re right about that Bill. There is the duplex pair in front and another bearing toward the rear of the headstock on the other side of the pulley.
I’m pretty sure I have a diagram of it I can scan in a bit..., or I’ll just take a picture of it.

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Stradbash · Apr 13, 2021

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Peter. · Apr 13, 2021

You do have to remove he spindle. You gotta remove the handwheel (and probably the gear behind it - I did), loosen the top belt, remove the grub screws from the belt pulley on the spindle then un-bolt the spindle front plate and pull the spindle out the front of the headstock. The bearings stay on the spindle but the top pulley has to slide backwards on the spindle whilst the spindle is pulled out. That's the hard bit because it's probably on there tight, mine was. I had to use wooden packers and wedges and it was still a bear of a job to do without damaging it.

When you put it back together take great care not to mash the gearbox gear.

rons · Apr 13, 2021

When you remove the spindle/bearings:

Flush the bearings with lacquer thinner.
Palm in new grease.

Before removing spindle draw a little alignment mark on the round collar that is bolted to the head and the head itself. A guy in Hardinge customer service told me
that one. Use the alignment mark on assembly.

I palmed in grease when my spindle was out.

I heard that if you know what to listen for you can place your ear on the head when the lathe is running and diagnose if the bearings are bad or good.

marcsO · Apr 14, 2021

Billtodd said:
I think you mean ZMT , Richard. Unfortunately they went out of business a few years ago.

I believe HLVs have the drive belt between the bearings , unlike the HLV-H , which means the spindle has to be pulled to change belts. If so, it is possible the last belts change left something loose (wishful thinking perhaps) but it might also mean that pulling the spindle is not too traumatic.

Edit: yes spindle has to be pulled see p19 of manual here
Hardinge HLV-BK Operator's Manual 1958.pdf - Google Drive

Hi yes did reach out be as you say he is retired now and does not really have much to do with these machines - it was Richard who mentioned the taper being different which causes chucks to let go and come off!

marcsO · Apr 14, 2021

Richard King said:
There is a company in England that used to rebuild Hardinge's. I will have to do some research to find them. They also made some machines in England. Does your machine have a tag that says Made in USA or England? Those spindles made in the USA are specially made. The spindle ID was ground a few thousands bigger, so if you bought precision bearings of the shelf they got hot. Hardinge ground or ordered the bearings from the Bearing company ground with a bigger ID. Hardinge bearings have a few extra numbers engraved in them. Hardinge USA made machines have a great manual and it tells you how to remove the headstock belt and how to remove the Headstock off the bed plate. I have taken the spindle apart and will have to look for a manual. I used to send the heads back to Hardinge and had them rebuild them. I will look for the UK company name. Those guy's retired, but they may have some idea's. You will need to have the serial number too. Those bearings use a special grease too...and a special amount of grease too. Your machine looks pretty nice. Is that original? It maybe a loose bearing retainer nut maybe and an easy fix, but I suspect the bearing is shot. Does it have a push in button on the back that locks the spindle? Could that be rubbing? They have a detent ball and spring, maybe the spring broke or it stuck...? I'll look for info and write later. Rich

Hi many thanks for the response and information, its very valuable and will do some checks, I do believe its a UK supplied machine as it was bought by Rolls Royce from new over 60 years ago so would suggest they bought a UK machine - Iwill do some checks.
Interesting you say UK v US are different, someone told me the taper used on the spindle also differs from UK to US made machines and the 4 degree taper is not what UK machines are made with, does this ring true with any on you guys?

Interestingly the spindle lock button did pull straight out the other day, managed to get it back in but was concerned that it should not just pull out so maybe something has come out or broken from here and is caught up somewhere....... is there any images or details around how this is assembled?

The machine is original, has had some paint at some point and I made the front control panel, plus the motors and electrics are all upgraded but believe the rest is as per the original.

Thank you Marc

marcsO · Apr 14, 2021

Hi seems to be a UK machine as the name plate on the machine front indicates its from Hardinge, Feltham, Middlesex, England. The serial number is HLV0076 which I understand is from 1952/3 (if anyone can confirm that would be good)

Seems the spindle lock is not the issue and ear to the front of the spindle casing is flagging up a squealing noise which from my basic engineering experience is a sign of bearing issues.

Will loop in a mate and try to strip this down, as was planning to de a belt change at some stage so now seems to be the ticket! I guess the bearings will be the challenge but I'm right is suggesting remove the spindle first, work out what bearings are being used and then try to source them - correct?

marc

Billtodd · Apr 14, 2021

Your machine doesn't look like it's done a lot of work , so unless a previous operator has really thumped the spindle , the chances are the bearing are good and it's just the dry grease that is making it noisy (i.e. the ball support ring vibrating).

I replaced a set of very similar bearings in the works little Smart + Brown L2 (5C spindle) a couple of years ago , the spindle was making a terrible noise . On close inspection, the old bearings were not too bad at all , just dry (I still have them :-)) . I think the replacements were £300-400 , so brace yourself when you ask the price!

Bill

Stradbash · Apr 14, 2021

The spindle lock is in the image I posted to the right.
Part #279.

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Mark Rand · Apr 14, 2021

My HLV (Feltham HLV0247) had the bearings completely dried up when I rebuilt it I cleaned and regreased them and haven't needed to replace them yet. Oddly enough, the headstock bearings were the only ones I didn't need to replace, the machine had been rode hard and put away wet and appeared to have spent the last part of its life butchered to do metal spinning or polishing.

It's possible that the noise is from the belts or the Reeves drive, but disassembly will show whether that is the case.

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Hardinge HLV spindle bearing replacement - advice/help

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