Hardinge HLVH EM Newby needs help

erich lessing · Mar 6, 2021

Hello,
I recently upgraded my 1970's model HLVH to a 2005 HLVH EM. The newer machine was missing the collet closer and chuck. My old machine was purchased with a collet closer and 3 jaw chuck installed. I destroyed the closer tube during removal from my old machine due to it being frozen in place with rust and corrosion. Also, the chuck was threaded to the closer tube. I have since purchased a replacement collet closer and am ready to reassemble the lathe. My existing spindle nose is smooth with NO threads to install the Chuck. My questions are:
1. will it destroy the collet closer if I run the lathe with the closer installed and the 3 jaw chuck hooked to it at the same time?
2. If # 1 is a bad thing, do they make a threaded adaptor for my spindle nose so I can still use my existing 3 jaw chuck?
3. What does it take to list my old HLVH on this forum to sell when I'm finished swapping these parts?
Thanks,
Erich

NormWilliams · Mar 6, 2021

I haven't seen an HLVH that new but I find it hard believe the spindle nose is completely smooth. The last one I worked on was new in 1982 or so. It had a groove that started at the front of the spindle taper and went back parallel to the spindle, then angled towards the back of the taper in both directions. There is a pin in the chuck backing plate that goes in that groove and then is rotated either clockwise or counterclockwise, depending on whether you are turning forward or backward. The pin going up the ramped part of the groove is what locks the chuck (backing plate) onto the spindle taper.

Billtodd · Mar 7, 2021

>>>2. If # 1 is a bad thing, do they make a threaded adaptor for my spindle nose so I can still use my existing 3 jaw chuck?
You've spent a lot of money on a really nice lathe - don't cheap-out now .Buy a taper mount chuck or a back-plate to mount a plain back chuck

Remove the closer if it's not in use , it: will rattle about and cause damage if not secured. BTW The closer mechanism is adjustable , each hinge joint is a tapered screw into a conical seat , it should be adjusted to take the weight of the arm off of the bearing but not too tight or too loose to rattle.

You can use both collets and taper mount chuck together. see below: I'm holding a ball end of a shaft in a collet (with a collet stop) and using the chuck to drive the shaft)

FredC · Mar 7, 2021

Billtodd said:
>>>2.

Remove the closer if it's not in use , it: will rattle about and cause damage if not secured. BTW The closer mechanism is adjustable , each hinge joint is a tapered screw into a conical seat , it should be adjusted to take the weight of the arm off of the bearing but not too tight or too loose to rattle.

What Bill Todd said on the chuck tube when using a chuck. If you were using water based coolant in your old Hardinge do not do it on the new one. Can not imagine how a draw tube would be rusted in place. Coolant will also break down the adhesive holding the Turcite in place on the ways. You want to have a lathe not a boat anchor.
Get a manual there are some rules I do not understand when using an HLV-H but I am not going to break them on such an expensive and wonderful machine. Evidentaly threading with the spindle in reverse is a no/no.

Billtodd · Mar 7, 2021

Threading in reverse is possible, if unnecessary with the hardinge dog clutch.

However, if you need to run the spindle in reverse, make sure to lock the chuck on in reverse direction (avoids nasty shock - dont ask how i know!) .

erich lessing · Mar 7, 2021

erich lessing said:
Hello,
I recently upgraded my 1970's model HLVH to a 2005 HLVH EM. The newer machine was missing the collet closer and chuck. My old machine was purchased with a collet closer and 3 jaw chuck installed. I destroyed the closer tube during removal from my old machine due to it being frozen in place with rust and corrosion. Also, the chuck was threaded to the closer tube. I have since purchased a replacement collet closer and am ready to reassemble the lathe. My existing spindle nose is smooth with NO threads to install the Chuck. My questions are:
1. will it destroy the collet closer if I run the lathe with the closer installed and the 3 jaw chuck hooked to it at the same time?
2. If # 1 is a bad thing, do they make a threaded adaptor for my spindle nose so I can still use my existing 3 jaw chuck?
3. What does it take to list my old HLVH on this forum to sell when I'm finished swapping these parts?
Thanks,
Erich

erich lessing · Mar 7, 2021

Thanks again for the help. What type of coolant should I use to ensure I don't rust the collet closer inside the head?
Erich

Billtodd · Mar 7, 2021

Oil based coolants - try and find something that does strip paint - we have a couple of HC's stripped to the bare metal by their coolant !

Your chuck could probably be remounted , but I haven't seen a cam-lock (edit : is that a cam lock?) backplate for a hardinge nose . If the hole spacings allow you may be able to make one yourself (it's not too difficult to cut the 4degree taper and only transferring the key-screw hole requires some care)

Below is how I mounted a 6" four jaw (the one in the picture above) . To keep the thing as close to the nose as possible, I mounted a boss then cut the taper into it and the back of the chuck.

thermite · Mar 7, 2021

erich lessing said:
Thanks again for the help. What type of coolant should I use to ensure I don't rust the collet closer inside the head?
Erich

The general class are called 'neat oil' cutting fluids. Two explanations of several you can find:

Neat Oil Cutting & Grinding Fluids - Master Fluid Solutions™

How to increase safety in neat oil applications

Take note that all they have in common is being water-free. Gums and varnishes, lung or skin irritation, fire hazard, etc. are among several other challenges they (all) need to meet

When one starts mentioning vegetable oils and mineral oils in the same sentence? "Anything goes!"

Soooo ... it depends on your alloys, speeds, feeds, tooling, frequency of use, how long idle, what you are comfortable with as to acquisition cost, maintenance, and nooo "one size" does not fit all, but several are pretty good, all around.

"PS:" not all that many water-emulsion coolants are rust-makers. Most are decent at preventing rust, some are VERY good at preventing it.

Your lathe probably suffered more from simple NEGLECT than from hostile chemistry.

Groucho Marx story on the children and the cigar;

Did Groucho Marx Really Say It- The Cigar Quip

So it is with collet closers.

Take it out and clean it up once in a while, it WON'T rust into to bore!

FredC · Mar 8, 2021

Billtodd said:
Threading in reverse is possible, if unnecessary with the hardinge dog clutch.

However, if you need to run the spindle in reverse, make sure to lock the chuck on in reverse direction (avoids nasty shock - dont ask how i know!) .

Bill my manual in very bold letters say do not run the spindle in reverse while threading. I know it can be done because I did it once before I bought the manual. Not sure if the reason is some safety thing or maybe thrust in the gear train causing a breakdown with time. In case it is some problem in the gear train I am not going to do it again.

Mark Rand · Mar 8, 2021

The danger is that, if you are cutting a right hand thread, when the spindle is in reverse, the threading clutch stops won't release, they'll be driven to engage more firmly by the motion of the carriage. If you weren't using the stops then it won't matter.

Billtodd · Mar 8, 2021

Mark Rand said:
The danger is that, if you are cutting a right hand thread, when the spindle is in reverse, the threading clutch stops won't release, they'll be driven to engage more firmly by the motion of the carriage. If you weren't using the stops then it won't matter.

Ah yes i see what you mean. That said, the only reason to thread in reverse is if you cannot use the stops, for some reason.

FredC · Mar 8, 2021

Is the same true of the left hand stop? If so getting the tool back the a groove to start threading out would be a problem.

thermite · Mar 9, 2021

Billtodd said:
Ah yes i see what you mean. That said, the only reason to thread in reverse is if you cannot use the stops, for some reason.

Or there is a shoulder or "feature" to your left, (HS-ward..) you have no rear upside-down TP (Hardinge built such creatures)., so do "the usual" and single-point AWAY from any such "limiter".

Stops on steroids, fast-retract tooling, clever dog clutches, "ELSR", Cazeneuve black magic, and all that "too few ever even HAD it" class of "goodies" are then entirely optional.

Billtodd · Mar 9, 2021

thermite said:
Or there is a shoulder or "feature" to your left, (HS-ward..) you have no rear upside-down TP (Hardinge built such creatures)., so do "the usual" and single-point AWAY from any such "limiter".

Stops on steroids, fast-retract tooling, clever dog clutches, "ELSR", Cazeneuve black magic, and all that "too few ever even HAD it" class of "goodies" are then entirely optional.

One would expect a cazeneuve to have knob somewhere to do that sort of thing :-)

thermite · Mar 9, 2021

Billtodd said:
One would expect a cazeneuve to have knob somewhere to do that sort of thing :-)

More than just the ONE, actually. Slicker'n Owl-poop once set and nailed.

Even so, old habits die hard, given 1920's and such lathes did NOT have it, so a few millions of Old Skewl worker bees just did the obvious. Threaded TOWARDS.. ignorant air and fired up a Camel to spectate and relax! The cigarette. Not the animal.

Besides.. I even make a run to the loo, I have to re-do the advanced course on how to think sideways .. and in French, yet.. to USE the elegant features on that complicated HBX-360-"BC".

Part of why I cherish it.

I'm counting on it to provide early-warning of stroke, senile dementia, or Alzheimers if/as/when I just stand there LOOKING at it ... with a poor-old Joe Buyed-in look on the petrified remains of my face!

"A man gots to know his limit-Asians."

Billtodd · Mar 20, 2021

Mark Rand said:
The danger is that, if you are cutting a right hand thread, when the spindle is in reverse, the threading clutch stops won't release, they'll be driven to engage more firmly by the motion of the carriage. If you weren't using the stops then it won't matter.

It occurred to me while working out another problem, that if you really need to thread away from the chuck in reverse , then if you reverse the lead screw using change gears , i.e. a train of three grears i stead of the usual four, then the stops will act correctly.

Bill

sfriedberg · Mar 20, 2021

erich lessing said:
What type of coolant should I use to ensure I don't rust the collet closer inside the head?

I use Mobilmet 426 on my small Hardinge lathes when I need flood. It's a straight oil, rated for three purposes: cutting oil, lubrication, and hydraulic fluid. And it doesn't eat red metal (copper and copper alloys like brass and bronze). It's not the only choice, and a straight oil can be messy. But I either cut totally dry, brush on a cutting oil, or flood MM 426.

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