Hardinge KL-1 feed motor: can you please share volt ratings?
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    Default Hardinge KL-1 feed motor: can you please share volt ratings?

    Hi to all,

    still trying to put my KL-1 together. Many things to do still, now I have shifted my attention to the power feed motor.

    Power feeds never worked on this machine for several issues. After a lot of work I repaired the 'Variac' and tried again. Though the Variac seems to be working, I was getting a blown fuse still.

    So, I dug in a bit further. My driving unit outputs around 190 V towards the Field connectors. I also measured the armature connectors and they gave out around 90 V with the Variac mid-travel!! This would give around 200 V when set to full speed.
    However, my power feed motor is rated 110 V (A)/190 V (F). So, there is something obviously wrong here.

    My machine has seen previous owner working on the power feed department: all I got for 'electrical diagrams' in the cabinet door was just internet prints of various power feed driving units. They has all versions there, including the US 90/100 unit....Plus, my power feed motor is painted blue, so I would assume it's not original.

    So, I am guessing that, most probably, my machine came with a 230 V (A)/230 V (F) power feed motor that died at some point and was replaced by a 'hardinge power feed motor' that came off some other model and is my current 110/190 unit.

    So, I would kindly ask any KL-1 users within the group to have a look at their feed motors and let me know what they are rated for.
    Also, if someone could share a schematic (electrical diagram) for the KL-1, it would be very helpful to me.

    BR,
    Thanos

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    My UK made HLV-H has a Type SD22 No RC473/35 Croydon England

    1/15hp 150vdc Armature 190vdc Field 1750RPM

    Measuring (with 230vac input) the field winding has 218vdc across it . the armature sees 110vdc @50% and 267vdc @ 100%
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails hlv-h-1966-variac-carriage-motor-circuit.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billtodd View Post
    My UK made HLV-H has a Type SD22 No RC473/35 Croydon England

    1/15hp 150vdc Armature 190vdc Field 1750RPM

    Measuring (with 230vac input) the field winding has 218vdc across it . the armature sees 110vdc @50% and 267vdc @ 100%
    Hi there Bill, thanks for the reply.

    I am familiar with this schematic, I've already printed it for my file. However, this one totally ruins my theory, I was hopping there was a typo there:

    Isn't it strange to feed a 150 VDC Armature motor with 267 VDC (at 100%)?? I guess it should be able to operate at 100% for some time, not only instantly.

    BR,
    Thanos

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    The rating will be the full load spec . In any case the actual limit on the motor will be power not volts or current individually. (leaving aside breakdown voltage or stalled current)

    So, no. it is not so strange to drive the motor with those voltages (there could easily be errors in the measured values due to spikes etc.) it is not run at particularly high loads or duty cycle .

    Does the motor turn before the fuse blows? or does it pop instantly?

    Does it blow with motor disconnected , armature disconnected, field disconnected ???

    do the armature and field winding resistances look roughly correct?

    is there and conduction to ground/chassis on either winding ?

    Does anyone you know have a growler ? to check the windings.

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    Just a thought...

    I had a mysterious fuse blowing episode with a HLV-H/KL1 at work a while ago , I traced that problem to the fuse holder . There had been some condensation that had got behind the bakelite (?) fuse holder and started an arc to the chassis, the bakelite was burned just enough to cause the fuse to pop.

    Worth checking.

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    Hi there Bill,

    so thanks for the reply, I am kind of at a loss here....

    The actual status is:

    I drew a 100V line from the the main transformer, passed it through a relay controlled by the spindle switch (like the other, 230 V supply of the feed drive unit) and sent it over to the drive unit. So, I now have a fuse protected and relay controlled 230 V supply to the field and a fuse protected and relay controlled 110 V supply to the variac for the armature.

    - motor turns and works nicely and nothing bad happens bellow around 50%. Both directions, all nice and smooth.
    - if I go over 50%, bad things happen:
    -- the variac is starting to get hot (starts smoking)
    -- the main transformer in the cabinet is starting to hum/buzz! If you go over 70% buzzing is really loud and I back off before I destroy something. I have to study a bit about transformer buzzing, I have no idea why this happens, but it's not something to be left alone.

    Two extra notes:
    - my variac had to be repaired. Previous owner managed to cut off a wire, I guess by hitting the heavy variac to the casing when removing it. I repaired it. There is some sparking when the slider moves over the repaired section (a bit before 50%) but no other issues.
    - I tried a varic from a friends HLVH, I think it got a bit hotter than mine under the same conditions but not 100% sure.

    You are right, I have to study full specs of the motor, power rating as well that is.

    BR,
    Thanos

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    "- if I go over 50%, bad things happen:
    -- the variac is starting to get hot (starts smoking)"

    Check to see you did not accidentally interchange variac terminals during the rewire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    Hi there Bill,

    so thanks for the reply, I am kind of at a loss here....

    The actual status is:

    I drew a 100V line from the the main transformer, passed it through a relay controlled by the spindle switch (like the other, 230 V supply of the feed drive unit) and sent it over to the drive unit. So, I now have a fuse protected and relay controlled 230 V supply to the field and a fuse protected and relay controlled 110 V supply to the variac for the armature.

    - motor turns and works nicely and nothing bad happens bellow around 50%. Both directions, all nice and smooth.
    - if I go over 50%, bad things happen:
    -- the variac is starting to get hot (starts smoking)
    -- the main transformer in the cabinet is starting to hum/buzz!
    If you go over 70% buzzing is really loud and I back off before I destroy something.
    I have to study a bit about transformer buzzing, I have no idea why this happens, but it's not something to be left alone.

    Two extra notes:
    - my variac had to be repaired. Previous owner managed to cut off a wire, I guess by hitting the heavy variac to the casing when removing it. I repaired it. There is some sparking when the slider moves over the repaired section (a bit before 50%) but no other issues.
    - I tried a varic from a friends HLVH, I think it got a bit hotter than mine under the same conditions but not 100% sure.

    You are right, I have to study full specs of the motor, power rating as well that is.

    BR,
    Thanos
    Thanos?

    "From (quite) a distance" ... it "seems as if" it could be as simple as trying to run the motor at right about DOUBLE its nameplate voltages, Armature, Field, or both, with the Variac well-up.

    See if simply putting your supply onto 120 VAC instead of 240 VAC (or "thereabouts") - no other changes -lets you get full Variac range without the heat and buzzing.

    IF the output is obviously too low in torque, NEXT see if it stays cool if the FIELD power is moved back up in Voltage, the armature NOT.

    Next question, either way, is whether the max RPM into the lathe is "as expected".

    Or at least "useful" with no further time and money spent.

    Worth a try? Cheap enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    "- if I go over 50%, bad things happen:
    -- the variac is starting to get hot (starts smoking)"

    Check to see you did not accidentally interchange variac terminals during the rewire.
    I'll do that Jim, thanks. Voltage climbs when I turn the knob CW, so I thought I am ok regarding connections, but I'll check again.

    (note: I didn't rewire the thing, just repaired the broken connection, just one or two cables to fix)

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Thanos?

    "From (quite) a distance" ... it "seems as if" it could be as simple as trying to run the motor at right about DOUBLE its nameplate voltages, Armature, Field, or both, with the Variac well-up.

    See if simply putting your supply onto 120 VAC instead of 240 VAC (or "thereabouts") - no other changes -lets you get full Variac range without the heat and buzzing.

    IF the output is obviously too low in torque, NEXT see if it stays cool if the FIELD power is moved back up in Voltage, the armature NOT.

    Next question, either way, is whether the max RPM into the lathe is "as expected".

    Or at least "useful" with no further time and money spent.

    Worth a try? Cheap enough.
    Hey there Bill, thanks for chiming in.

    You missed my: "I drew a 100V line from the the main transformer, passed it through a relay controlled by the spindle switch (like the other, 230 V supply of the feed drive unit) and sent it over to the drive unit. So, I now have a fuse protected and relay controlled 230 V supply to the field and a fuse protected and relay controlled 110 V supply to the variac for the armature." statement.

    Exactly as you suggested, I thought it'd make sense to feed the motor with what it's expecting (or 'thereabouts' as you said.). My latest report is exactly from that state...

    Regarding max RPM, no way to check. If I go further than around 70%, buzzing can be heard as far as Virginia US

    BR,
    Thanos

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    if it runs ok at 50% , putting what? (100 * 1.414 / 2) 70 odd volts across the armature .

    What happens if you disconnect the armature (just pop the brushes out of the holders) ? Do you get anything similar happing to the variac? what volts (ac) do you read at the output of the wiper (it should smoothly increase from 0 to 110% , or so, or the input volts)

    BTW Do you have silicon diodes or selenium plate recti-friers (if later replace with diodes)

    If that test goes OK , it sounds like the armature is breaking down or has a shorted turn (might be worth thoroughly cleaning the commutator , but from my experience - it's probably buggered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    "- if I go over 50%, bad things happen:
    -- the variac is starting to get hot (starts smoking)"

    Check to see you did not accidentally interchange variac terminals during the rewire.

    YES ! this would make good sense and needs to be checked before you sod something up

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    Hey there Bill, thanks for chiming in.

    You missed my: "I drew a 100V line from the the main transformer, passed it through a relay controlled by the spindle switch (like the other, 230 V supply of the feed drive unit) and sent it over to the drive unit. So, I now have a fuse protected and relay controlled 230 V supply to the field and a fuse protected and relay controlled 110 V supply to the variac for the armature." statement.

    Exactly as you suggested, I thought it'd make sense to feed the motor with what it's expecting (or 'thereabouts' as you said.). My latest report is exactly from that state...

    Regarding max RPM, no way to check. If I go further than around 70%, buzzing can be heard as far as Virginia US

    BR,
    Thanos
    Didn't miss it at all. Saw it as red-flag bass-ackwards.

    You can overheat with double the Field as easily as double the armature.

    I'd expect 90 VDC or 180 VDC off the Rectifiers, 180 for the Armature, 90 for the field, or 90 for BOTH. It's what is most common.

    Hardinge wudda BOUGHT motors, didn't build their own, even if they nameplated them.

    Motors can be wound any way they need to be, but Field voltage is commonly same as Armature, small motors, or HALF of it, larger ones, very rarely HIGHER.

    That has to do with what sort of power is readily to-hand, not what wire size was cheap that week.

    A Variac typically goes from near-zero tap to about 130% above line. It's just a one-coil autotransformer with a few taps, usually, plus a slider, always.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billtodd View Post
    if it runs ok at 50% , putting what? (100 * 1.414 / 2) 70 odd volts across the armature .

    What happens if you disconnect the armature (just pop the brushes out of the holders) ? Do you get anything similar happing to the variac? what volts (ac) do you read at the output of the wiper (it should smoothly increase from 0 to 110% , or so, or the input volts)

    BTW Do you have silicon diodes or selenium plate recti-friers (if later replace with diodes)

    If that test goes OK , it sounds like the armature is breaking down or has a shorted turn (might be worth thoroughly cleaning the commutator , but from my experience - it's probably buggered.
    Right Bill, makes sense. I'll disconnect the armature and check if strange things still happen. If not, then it's the rotor to blame. I think I've cleaned the commutator, I saw it shinning last time I opened the brush-holders, but I'll check again.

    I have regular silicon diodes and they seem to be in good shape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billtodd View Post
    YES ! this would make good sense and needs to be checked before you sod something up
    I'll check and report back.

    Many thanks for the tips!

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Didn't miss it at all. Saw it as red-flag bass-ackwards.

    You can overheat with double the Field as easily as double the armature.

    I'd expect 90 VDC or 180 VDC off the Rectifiers, 180 for the Armature, 90 for the field, or 90 for BOTH. It's what is most common.

    Hardinge wudda BOUGHT motors, didn't build their own, even if they nameplated them.

    Motors can be wound any way they need to be, but Field voltage is commonly same as Armature, small motors, or HALF of it, larger ones, very rarely HIGHER.

    That has to do with what sort of power is readily to-hand, not what wire size was cheap that week.

    A Variac typically goes from near-zero tap to about 130% above line. It's just a one-coil autotransformer with a few taps, usually, plus a slider, always.
    Hi Bill,

    sorry if I am not following but as I said:
    - I wired the motor to get voltages both at A and F close to the specs
    - Specs are 110 A/190 F (Field higher than Armature, confirmed also by Billtod whose motor is a 150A/190F unit.
    - Right, the autotransformer here has the two terminals, two taps and a slider.

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    Hi Bill,

    sorry if I am not following but as I said:
    - I wired the motor to get voltages both at A and F close to the specs
    - Specs are 110 A/190 F (Field higher than Armature, confirmed also by Billtod whose motor is a 150A/190F unit.
    - Right, the autotransformer here has the two terminals, two taps and a slider.

    BR,
    Thanos
    Motor could have failed some time before you got hands on it, then?

    Shorted windings fit the symptoms? Weak output, even at lower Voltages when not running hot?

    Possible that whilst the Variac needed repair, someone ran it off a cheap-arsed crude-rude waveform SCR router control or incandescent lamp-dimmer instead of the pure sine-wave Variac. Far worse even than a cheap VFD, the spikes can have pierced the insulation all to an imitation of Swiss Cheese or a Mosquito net.

    Is it CLEAN inside? Or got soot and Carbon-trails? Packed with lint off working fluffy fiber-reinforced plastics or such?

    A substitute motor should be findable.

    Bodine, Bison, several others, European prolly even more likely. These types and sizes find use in everything from soda vending machines to office copiers.

    ISTR some folk have even robbed corded hand power tool motors?

    See what shaft you have and start searching. Mounting and shaft adaptor you can DIY. Doesn't have to LOOK OEM, only has to provide the same functionality.

    Or better, if you want to go that route. CNC servo'ed, even.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billtodd View Post
    My UK made HLV-H has a Type SD22 No RC473/35 Croydon England

    1/15hp 150vdc Armature 190vdc Field 1750RPM

    Measuring (with 230vac input) the field winding has 218vdc across it . the armature sees 110vdc @50% and 267vdc @ 100%
    Hi to all,

    so, the report of my latest findings:

    - My motor is also a Croydon England unit, 50 W (1/15 HP), type SD22, 1750 RPM, same as Bills. BUT...mine says 115A/190F when it comes to voltage rating....This is very strange, could it be a typo on mine or Bill's label?

    I went on and did some investigation:
    - I reverted to the initial connection, i.e. feeding both the Field and the Variac with 230 V. Disconnected the armature and turned everything on. No issues. Turned the Variac from 0 to 100%, no issues. No heat, no buzzing, no blown fuses.
    - Then, I focused on the motor. Went to a friendly motor workshop and he put the rotor on that alternatingly magnetic V block, checking if any part of the core is magnetized, I think that's a growler. No issues, rotor is fine.
    Then, we connected field and armature in parallel and hooked it all on a Variac the guy had. We drove the motor up to 250 V, it worked perfectly and drew only around 300 mA. So, I guess we can say that the motor is just fine.

    So, in all, if the Variac on its own is ok and the motor on its own is also fine I guess we 're only left with the diode board...
    I will check that tomorrow thoroughly. A first check didn't show something very obvious, but I hope I'll find something. Can't think of anything else though...

    Will report back tomorrow, any ideas welcome!

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    Hi to all,

    so, the report of my latest findings:

    - My motor is also a Croydon England unit, 50 W (1/15 HP), type SD22, 1750 RPM, same as Bills. BUT...mine says 115A/190F when it comes to voltage rating....This is very strange, could it be a typo on mine or Bill's label?

    I went on and did some investigation:
    - I reverted to the initial connection, i.e. feeding both the Field and the Variac with 230 V. Disconnected the armature and turned everything on. No issues. Turned the Variac from 0 to 100%, no issues. No heat, no buzzing, no blown fuses.
    - Then, I focused on the motor. Went to a friendly motor workshop and he put the rotor on that alternatingly magnetic V block, checking if any part of the core is magnetized, I think that's a growler. No issues, rotor is fine.
    Then, we connected field and armature in parallel and hooked it all on a Variac the guy had. We drove the motor up to 250 V, it worked perfectly and drew only around 300 mA. So, I guess we can say that the motor is just fine.

    So, in all, if the Variac on its own is ok and the motor on its own is also fine I guess we 're only left with the diode board...
    I will check that tomorrow thoroughly. A first check didn't show something very obvious, but I hope I'll find something. Can't think of anything else though...

    Will report back tomorrow, any ideas welcome!

    BR,
    Thanos
    Mea Culpa for not suggesting you look at it sooner....human nature to take the cheapest and dumbest stuff for granted and let all of three dollars worth of dirty beach sand bite us in the ass whilst focused on the expensive bits..but...

    Good chance your "Diode Board" has one leg functional, steering, the other leg failed SHORTED and passing BOTH halves of the incoming AC wave, fighting progress exactly half the time, trying and winning at turning your motor into a space heater.

    ELSE one leg failed OPEN, leaving you running at half line Hz and power, motor going hot and noisy trying to do its work on half-rations, delivered rough.

    Three to six bucks worth of heat-sink-coupled, plain vanilla packaged full-wave bridge, 50 A, 1200 PIV, and very nearly as common as dirt.

    PS: Share with us, please, the measured peak output Voltage of your Variac, cranked full-up, and the Voltage of the line, actual per the meter also, not utility published nominal.

    Get this sorted, we may be able to move closer to narrowing down what voltage your motor is comfortable with, nameplate proper match to what windings it has or just known to be a safe-enough conservative "claim" against the same motor Bill has, cheaper "badge engineered" downward than actually special wound.

    A tachometer would be helpful, but we can fake it the crude and patient way if need be.

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    just looked at my motor it also says 115v so must have copied it down wrong:-(

    That doesn't change much however. Hardinge can run the motor at the higher voltage because the voltage doesn't matter. If its its power consumption/dissipation is ok the motor will be fine.

    The motor is fed by a rippling dc , when measured with a typical DMM this reading will look high. You can measure the dc resistance of the windings, but can't just use ohms law to calculate the power.

    You can make fancy measurements and calculate the numbers, but it is easier just to feel the temperature of a working unit , if it's only warm, it is fine , regardless of motor plate numbers.

    the OPs problem is a fault not a manufacturing error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Mea Culpa for not suggesting you look at it sooner....human nature to take the cheapest and dumbest stuff for granted and let all of three dollars worth of dirty beach sand bite us in the ass whilst focused on the expensive bits..but...

    PS: Share with us, please, the measured peak output Voltage of your Variac, cranked full-up, and the Voltage of the line, actual per the meter also, not utility published nominal.

    Get this sorted, we may be able to move closer to narrowing down what voltage your motor is comfortable with, nameplate proper match to what windings it has or just known to be a safe-enough conservative "claim" against the same motor Bill has, cheaper "badge engineered" downward than actually special wound.

    A tachometer would be helpful, but we can fake it the crude and patient way if need be.
    Hey Bill,

    nevermind, I had done a sanity check myself to begin with and found nothing strange on the diode board. Looking forward to get the chance to have a more thorough look, sadly not tonight....

    Quote Originally Posted by Billtodd View Post
    just looked at my motor it also says 115v so must have copied it down wrong:-(

    That doesn't change much however. Hardinge can run the motor at the higher voltage because the voltage doesn't matter. If its its power consumption/dissipation is ok the motor will be fine.

    The motor is fed by a rippling dc , when measured with a typical DMM this reading will look high. You can measure the dc resistance of the windings, but can't just use ohms law to calculate the power.

    You can make fancy measurements and calculate the numbers, but it is easier just to feel the temperature of a working unit , if it's only warm, it is fine , regardless of motor plate numbers.

    the OPs problem is a fault not a manufacturing error.
    Hey Bill,

    no problem at all, all I wanted was to feel 'connected' and not having a strange motor . Great that we have the same motor. If yours works with this drive unit configuration, mine will as well, just a matter of time.

    Yes, I have no intention in messing with the motor specs, I just want to repair the problem and finally get this lathe to make some chips.

    Will let you know as soon as I find some time to spend on the diode board.

    BR,
    Thanos


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