Is this Hardinge lathe a model B?
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    Default Is this Hardinge lathe a model B?

    Hi all, I'm new to this forum but I picked this little lathe up last weekend and I am having a bugger of a time determining what model it is. From looking around on Ebay for parts, I think it is a model B but I would like your input. The only stamped number on it is S746. Thanks for your help.
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    The steel tombstone-shape plate on the back of the headstock should have the actual serial number, which can date it. My best guess is around 1939. You also need to state the collet type (5C?) and the swing (9 inch?). The S746 is an owner-applied number.

    Hardinge did not state their model designations in plain English on their early machines or in their early catalogs. Old catalogs are very rare. Sometimes the model can be figured out if you have the right original catalog. The models I know are either two or three letters followed by the collet and swing. Basically, you have a Cataract enclosed head ball bearing lathe on steel stand. That model lathe was first made around 1935 and was sold on a wood top/pipe leg bench or a wood desk-like bench. I have never seen one on a steel stand, so I am betting on 1939, the last year that model was made and the last time the Cataract name was used. In 1940, the new model TR was introduced and sold on either the same wood top/pipe leg bench or a new design steel base different from yours. The TR and the earlier models were sold in five sizes: 37, 47, 49, 57 and 59. The first digit is the collet size and the second digit is the swing. The T-slot on the back of the bed is for mounting a thread chasing attachment, a very rare item. Not all those lathes had the bed with the rear T-slot.

    Generically, it is called a split bed and any Hardinge split bed tooling (slide rests or tailstocks) of the correct swing (7" or 9") will fit, even if built before 1910. But for practical use, the later design tooling will be better.

    I have spare parts like slide rests and tailstocks.

    The pictures show a 1936 Cataract enclosed head ball bearing 59 lathe on the wood top/pipe leg bench that I restored in 1979. I sold it when I got a nice TR59 a few years later.

    Larry

    1936-hardinge-cataract-underdrive-lathe-1.jpg 1936-hardinge-cataract-underdrive-lathe-2.jpg 1936-hardinge-cataract-underdrive-lathe-3.jpg

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    Larry, thank you for your quick reply to my post. You have provided me with so much information. I found the serial number exactly where you said it would be but the plate had so much paint on it that I missed it. I have never seen a machine SN on a removable piece before and to be honest, I am surprised it has survived. The number is 57-13700. It is a 5C spindle and a 7 inch swing as the number verifies. I hope the 7 inch swing will not make it difficult to find a cross slide and turret tailstock for it. I suspect finding a manual for this machine is going to be very troublesome if not impossible. I have more questions I would like to ask you but I just wanted to let you know that I saw your reply and I truly appreciate your taking the time to answer.


    20210910_074401-2-.jpg
    Last edited by Bigstew53; 09-10-2021 at 08:43 AM. Reason: Move image

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    Larry gave a great description.

    That was a very nice lathe when it was new! Cataract with thread cutting (chasing) capability on a steel stand!
    And as Larry alludes, looks to be 5c when most were 4c?
    The back T-slot is for a chase threading attachment.

    Unfortunately unless you get lucky at out-of-the-way auctions, tooling one up is starting to become expensive.
    Lots of tooling around and on ebay, but prices keep advancing. People tend to buy the lathes, sell off all the tooling, and then dispose of the bare beds, which bring the least money and are most effort to dispose.

    I've got 2 with chase threading, but both are 4c spindles.

    Scroll down about mid page here on Tony's lathes site:
    Catarcat Lathes

    What is with the forum software that actual pic's can't even be pasted as attachments???



    smt

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    Thank you Stephen. All information is appreciated. I came with the original tailstock that is in nice condition but a jury rigged cross slide so I am looking for one of those and possibly a turret tailstock. Mine is a 7 inch swing which might make things harder for me.

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    BTW, beautiful restoration on Cataract Larry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen thomas View Post
    Larry gave a great description.

    That was a very nice lathe when it was new! Cataract with thread cutting (chasing) capability on a steel stand!
    And as Larry alludes, looks to be 5c when most were 4c?
    The back T-slot is for a chase threading attachment.

    Unfortunately unless you get lucky at out-of-the-way auctions, tooling one up is starting to become expensive.
    Lots of tooling around and on ebay, but prices keep advancing. People tend to buy the lathes, sell off all the tooling, and then dispose of the bare beds, which bring the least money and are most effort to dispose.

    I've got 2 with chase threading, but both are 4c spindles.

    Scroll down about mid page here on Tony's lathes site:
    Catarcat Lathes

    What is with the forum software that actual pic's can't even be pasted as attachments???



    smt
    Stephen, how did the thread chasing attachment work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigstew53 View Post
    Larry, thank you for your quick reply to my post. You have provided me with so much information. I found the serial number exactly where you said it would be but the plate had so much paint on it that I missed it. I have never seen a machine SN on a removable piece before and to be honest, I am surprised it has survived. The number is 57-13700. It is a 5C spindle and a 7 inch swing as the number verifies. I hope the 7 inch swing will not make it difficult to find a cross slide and turret tailstock for it. I suspect finding a manual for this machine is going to be very troublesome if not impossible. I have more questions I would like to ask you but I just wanted to let you know that I saw your reply and I truly appreciate your taking the time to answer.


    20210910_074401-2-.jpg
    I guessed the 1939 date correctly. First number in 1939 was 13662 and first number for 1940 was 14103.

    The 7" swing enclosed headstock lathes are much less common than the 9". The 7" slide rests wore out and got abused, so finding a good one is difficult and usually expensive. I have some, but most need some work. The 7" turrets are rare. I have a TR operator manual, which is close enough to the older model to be applicable, but it is not all that useful. I have a spare 7" lever double tool cross slide.

    If you want new drive belts, use the link-type. You do not want to take the spindle out, which is necessary if you use endless V-belts.

    If you could find one, a 9" headstock would fit your bed.

    Below are pictures of Hardinge chasing attachments. The last picture is from a 1946 DV59 catalog, the last plain turning lathe that could be ordered with that style attachment. The chuckers were available with thread chasing for decades longer, but they were of a different design.

    Larry

    catchase-1.jpgcatchase-2.jpgchasing-att-2-1.jpg dv59-leadscrews-3.jpg

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    I run a 7" 5C machine very much like yours, I really love mine. Mine is not on the steel stand, and I have the open headstock with plain bearings, but it still does most of what I need it to.

    I have been able to find all sorts of accessories for it although it has taken me years. I expect I have most (or an approximation of most) of what would have been offered for it. It's out there, it just takes time.

    These lathes are made more useful by using other manufacturer's parts on them- for cross slides this is simple, they just bolt on and don't need to match a centerline or bed shape. Pratt and Whitney made a LOT of 7" lathes, they were one of the only companies not to make a 9" machine (although they made a 10"?, but those seem rare) Most P&W compounds will be for 7" machines. That is what I use on mine.

    Wade also made a lot of 7" machines and those parts share the same bed size. That doesn't mean everything lines up perfectly, but honestly even other Cataract parts I've bought don't line up perfectly. I have a Wade 7" turret that is nicer than my Hardinge one.

    Here is a IG post of my lathe using the thread chasing attachment. I modified a Pratt and Whitney attachment to use on my Cataract bed- I had to make a bunch of the parts, but that's kind of how it goes with this stuff. Buy what you can, make what you can't I do have a Hardinge thread chasing attachment too, but it is for a 9" machine, and would also need some work to get working correctly.

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    Thank you Burton. I had a WWII vintage P&W 12x36 toolroom lathe that was a beast but it had been used at a school and the students sat around and beat on the ways just to kill time. I was amazed at the quality of that machine. I am sure it was surplused out of one of the services after the war. As for the Cataract, If I can find a nice cross slide I will be happy. I have a beautiful SB 9a that I can cut threads on and my son has a larger machine that cuts beautiful threads as well. I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post. I have learned so much about my machine just since posting to this forum.

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    just watched the video. That is slick! Now I probably want one.
    Also, thanks for the tip on the P&W cross slides.
    Last edited by Bigstew53; 09-10-2021 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Added text

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    Larry, thank you again for sharing your knowledge. I am curious about your comment "The 7" slide rests wore out and got abused". I'm not sure I understand. I am fascinated with the thread chasing attachment. Do you ever see them come up for sale and are they swing specific? I PM'd you on the lever cross slide you mentioned. If I were to get real froggy, how much of a job is it the remove the spindle to put V belts on the machine. There is currently only one belt that looks in good condition but looks like there is room for two or three. Sorry to be a bother but this forum has been SO helpful.

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    Hardinge did design changes on their machines and tooling. The first change often resulted in the tooling model designation having B added after the original model, then C and so forth. On some tooling, the model designation was not marked, so they just marked, "Model B" on the tooling, then "Model C" and so forth. As far as I know there never was a Model B lathe.

    On eBay at present there are two slide rests with the Model B mark. The sellers did not provide measurements, but they are probably for 9" lathes. There are a 9" turret and a 9" radius attachment marked Model B on eBay today.

    The 9" slide rests are usually worn and abused, but Hardinge was still selling updated (the 1960 model) replacement slide rests for the split beds until around 1980. The later replacements mean that there are some relatively new, but still somewhat worn and abused, 9" split bed slide rests out there. Hardinge stopped making 7" lathes around 1955, and never updated the 7" slide rest design after around 1940, so they are all pretty old. The 7" slide rests were used to turn the same sort of metal parts as the 9" lathes, but the dovetails and feed screws were smaller, making them wear out sooner. Abuse could happen to any machine, of course, but the absence of replacement parts led to using them until they just would not work anymore.

    Learn the difference between a double tool cross slide with lever feed and a slide rest that has cranks and feed screws. Those are the names Hardinge used in their catalogs.

    The chasing attachments use the same parts except the tool slides (the part with the long handle) are different for 7" and 9" lathes. Some of the parts got changed a little around 1940, but I think a 1940 attachment would fit a 1920 lathe. In 1946, the DV59 lathes were introduced and their chasing attachments are very different from the ones for split bed lathes.

    I took my 1936 ball bearing headstock apart and regretted it as soon as I had got the first one or two parts out. There were many snap rings and fragile cork washers for seals. A complex brake assembly is built into the headstock. Not a job for beginners. Look at the cross section drawing on Tony's site (below). The plain bearing headstocks I had restored before that were dead easy, so I thought I could handle it OK. I sold that pretty lathe to a wealthy man after I got my TR59. He later said he had given the headstock to a professional to rebuild after he bought it from me. Sorry.

    I have owned several enclosed head Hardinge lathes that had replacement link belts. And link belts are marketed with "better than conventional V-belt" claims, especially for woodworking machines. The 1940 TR lathe could have the V-belt replaced without disturbing the spindle and bearings. as one of the design improvements.

    Larry

    1935-enclosed-headstock.jpg

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    Stephen, how did the thread chasing attachment work?
    Very well, thank you.

    For multiples, it is the fastests manual single pointing process; assuming threaded lengths under maybe 2-1/4" or so.

    It is cool for "production" because you can run it as fast as the bit can stand, and quickly make multiple passes to size. (Burton is running his too slowly in the video, and it ought to have TS support at that slenderness ratio. For instruction, though, it is easy to watch what is happening.) I used to make metal bodied wood plane parts, and collets for Greenlee, Oliver and similar heavy mortise machines with the chase threading process. It is essential that the collet stop limit threads be square and true, & relatively close fit. So single point is necessary.


    dscn0004_01.jpg
    dscn0005_01.jpg

    First 2 photos show blank, set up to run.

    dscn0011_01.jpg

    Above photo after threading.

    dscn0017.jpg

    Final op - face and chamfer.

    Next: threading the collet body OD to match:

    dscn0021.jpg

    "Only 5 photos per post limit"

    smt

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    dscn0025.jpg

    Gosh, the photo repro values on this site have really deteriorated as far as detail.

    smt_mortiserbushing3.jpg

    Maybe you can get a sense from this one:

    smt_mortiserbushing5.jpg

    I used to make British infill style planes and adjusters. All the parts of the adjusters (& other hardware) were made on hardinge split bed lathes.
    These have hardened and lapped differential threads, so i just ran the big end OD's with a geometric die head in the turret, & the ID's with a spiral tap. stems tapered on a SB 10K. But all the fiddly bits were made as turret ops.

    dscn0692.jpg

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    Making the nut blanks for the collets above was a turret process, feeding a bar.
    These nuts are for 3/4" Greenlee and Oliver collets and just at 1" OD. 1-3/16" OD nuts for 7/8" body collets for larger Oliver mortisers I was able to run off a bar by using a jaw chuck, and removing the collet tube.

    dscn0012_01.jpg
    dscn0016_01.jpg
    dscn0020_01.jpg
    dscn0021_01.jpg

    The nut body is finished, except for the opposite face, shown in post above after threading.
    You can see how the smooth section is used to grip in the collet above, for threading.

    This is a standard set of 4 collets for an American pattern hollow chisel mortise machine, for hollow chisels up to about 1-1/8" square..
    They still need to be slit with a grub screw flat, or alternately a window milled through the side so the grub screw in the mortiser spindle can bear directly on the auger shank (People have different preferences. Or they have old sets with chewed up shanks that won't run well in a split compression type)

    smtdscn0004copy.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen thomas View Post
    dscn0025.jpg

    Gosh, the photo repro values on this site have really deteriorated as far as detail....
    If the original picture file is high enough resolution, it can be enlarged on the screen. Click on the picture and the picture will appear with a "last next 1 of 5" or similar text below it. Now click on the picture again and there will be no text on the screen, just the picture with a black background. Now hold the Ctrl key while hitting the + key as many times as you want. Each Ctrl + will enlarge the picture. Eventually the resolution will get too bad to see anything useful. Ctrl and - will decrease the size. Ctrl and 0 will return the picture to original size. The browser Back arrow will get from the picture back to the original PM thread page.

    Larry

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    Larry - my problem is i can never get "high res" files to load. So have to edit (compress) quality down and trim the pixels like crazy, or it just disappears when i hit upload. I figured out just a few days ago, that it is possible to cheat a bit, if pix are loaded one at a time, rather than in groups of 5. Most of what is loaded here in these posts is further compressed images, from ones that were already edited & compressed somewhat when posted originally years ago.

    All that said, i am routinely on a half dozen other sites from aviation to antique chainsaws to billiards and skiing, & woodworking. PM has become the most cumbersome and least productive to post pics on. It did not used to be that way.
    Plus pictures tend to disappear in posts with time, even when they are still in my folders.

    At this point, not really much interested in learning to fiddle that aspect here, either. I put the time in, in the past, and now re-doing seems a waste. It's time consuming & not productive for me.

    smt

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    My point is that the method I explained will allow anyone to enlarge a picture (or text) to better see details. It works on the pictures Stephen posted. It works on the headstock cross section drawing I copied from Tony's site in my post #13. Ctrl + works on any website to zoom in/enlarge details. It is just a handy tool to know about, like copy and paste.

    Larry

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    Larry - the photo you reposted is a perfect example of my frustration:
    In my files as downloaded the threads are obvious and relatively clear.
    As they show up on PM, regardless the level of magnification, they are about as clear as mud.

    But yes, as a user i am familiar with re-clicking to get a somewhat bigger picture.
    As a poster, it frustrates me that it is a cumbersomely difficult iteration of cut and try editing and re-editing pix to get the most pixels the forum will take before disappearing the picture, and often that won't be enough for clarity if the original was not a small close-up shot, say.

    Most sites these days will take multi-MB pixels per photo in jpg format. PM is restricted to a few KB. Working to triage individual pixels to maximise a visual gets to be not worth the effort.
    And as noted, PM used to take much larger files that gave a pallet to compose & work with. You will recall i posted many. Many that are now disappeared.

    smt


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