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Hardinge Superslant with alarm 2008: X axis break is on

Vitran

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
I bought the old Hardinge Superslant 3 axis from work as they wanted to get rid of it fast to make room for the newer, bigger lathe. This is a 1988 model with Fanuc on it. At work it ran fine for the most part. If there was issues, tapping the relays with a hammer handle to jiggle them to get them to go was all it took. The machine was powered up last month after a 6 month unpowered and I am getting some unhappiness at the start. Holding down the E-Stop Reset does not turn on the pump.

Two errors on the screen and one alarm:

Low hydraulic pressure
Emergency Stop Activated
Alarm 2008: X axis break on

Nobody knows what the X axis break on means. I have been looking through the power to the X axis servo to see what is going on. The break is powered hydraulically, but the hydraulics will not turn on.

Anyone have this issue before? Google searching leads to one person who had the same problem, but no replies.
 
I have been going through the electrical schematics and maintenance manuals but I am not fully up to speed about the Fanuc systems as I have spent most of my time on fixing a massive Deckel. The manual has several different manuals in the same book for different Hardinge and Fanuc and servo variations so it is a little confusing knowing which variation I am dealing with.

Also, if anyone knows, do Alarms stop the pump from starting? Other than the Emergency Stop button on the front, is there another Emergency Stop trigger?
 
Bit of progress.

I found that the E-stop button on the front of the machine has 24VDC and 2.6VDC on the two sides of the relay. I also found that the relay that triggers the hydraulic pump is 24VDC and is receiving the 2.6VDC. I do not know where the 2.6VDC power is coming from.

Does anyone have the E-Stop circuit diagram or the hydraulic electrical circuit diagram for a Hardinge Superslant? I have the electrical wire diagrams for the Fanuc system and the names and locations of items inside the distribution panel, but not the wiring diagram with wire numbers for the electrical panel.
 
You can't trust voltage on the E-stop chain. Sometimes the E-stop relay pulls to ground. Normally there is another E-stop on the conveyor and bar feeder if it has one. Best thing is to check continuity through the whole string. There might be 2 channels. Both have to be made.

Many things can put the machine it E-stop though. You need a ladder diagram to see the E-stop circuit.
 
Hmmm. No conveyor or bar feeder. I cannot find any information on the E-Stop chain outside of the Fanuc control manual which does not provide wire numbers. I have duplicate Fanuc manuals, not one specific to the machine so I am rather lost when trying to fix this. Also multiple manuals on how to use the paper reader, which I am not using. Would love to sell the paper reader but doubt it has any value.

I am tempted to inject power into the relay to latch it on, but would like to see if someone else has had something similar or has any idea why the power is 2.6V. This is 2.6V to ground, not just across the switch. Also when open or closed, it is 2.6V.
 
I have been busy on fixing another machine and just got back to this. I got the emergency stop circuit diagrams from Hardinge without any difficulty, nice that.

This is what I do have now. The emergency stop at the front has 0V or nearly 0V on all its lines. From the back of the machine it says it connects to C04-41. C04 is a connection to an input/output board. Then it says it goes to relay 2.0, which for the life of me I have no idea where it is. The input/output board does not have indicators as to where this may be. Am I looking in the wrong spot? Where could the 2.0 relay be?

As well there are a few power supplies in the cabinet that I checked. Each has the right output voltages, so that is good.

As of now I am just tempted to run a line from a 24V power supply at the back to the emergency stop button at the front, however I assume the relay 2.0 is when the PLC wants to cause an E stop shutdown. Not sure what to do here.

path4212-7.jpgtext4147.jpgDrawing.jpg
 
On the older Superslants with AB8200 and GN6T controls, the x-axis brake was pneumatic. Do you have the air hooked up and is it over 50 psi? Some older machines will not come out of e-stop without the air on.

All hard over-travel limit switches will cause an e-stop condition if they are made or one is shorted to ground.

Where is the x-axis slide position? Is it possible that it is on the OT limit switch? If the slide drifted down it might be on a hard OT limit. I would check all of the OT limits for every axis. If x-axis drifted down you can remove a cover and put an Allen hex in the end of the ball screw and turn it back up and off of the switch. Your maintenance manual might have a way to by-pass the hard over-travel condition and jog the axis off of the switch.

I would try the simple things first before putting jumpers in electrical circuits.

The maintenance manual is a wealth of information and you should read up on it. I don't have anything info on the slant bed with Fanuc.

Good luck, Daryl
 
I have hooked up air. As is the errors are "Low Hydraulic Pressure" and "Emergency Stop" and only the alarm is "X axis break is on". I can get rid of the "Low Air Pressure" error. It does piss out air, so there is an open air line somewhere, but that is an old problem with the machine.

The X axis is on a block of wood between it and the tailstock and positioned in the middle of the bed. The X axis is nowhere near the middle of the spindle travel. I have been spending a few good nights reading the maintenance manuals in bed for any clues as to what to know and understanding the system but why it is unhappy is still a mystery.
 
Brought camera to take better photos, had no power. So here are some potato quality photos. Are they good enough to figure it out? Is there an exact piece of info on one of the boards I can find that would help?

IMG_20170105_190410.jpgIMG_20170105_190213.jpgIMG_20170105_190257.jpgIMG_20170105_190340.jpgIMG_20170105_190807.jpg
 
Hmm. That's an old control. Maybe a 6t?

You will probably never figure this out without an electrical schematic. You have to find one.

Otherwise you have to trace the estop string and find out what is putting it into e stop. That is probably also the cause of the hydraulic pressure issues and maybe the brake.
 
I have the electrical schematic. It indicates that a relay (relay 2.0) which goes through C04-41 is the relay between it and the +24VDC. I found port C04 and I could fine the 41st wire, but I do not know where relay 2.0 is located.

EDIT, it seems practical machinist refuses to allow an upload large enough to actually read it.
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Does the control have a second control on the door facing the one you posted in the photos?

You can check the status of relay 2.0 on the diagnostics page under 2 bit 0, with a 1 = relay closed.

In post #1 you state the following:
"Two errors on the screen and one alarm:

Low hydraulic pressure
Emergency Stop Activated
Alarm 2008: X axis break on" It should be brake, not break. Be very careful with spelling with alarms.
What does the top line in that screen say? Message or alarm?
Is there other information on that screen? Like Not Ready?

Hardinge seems to want it's messages to take priority over real alarms, like servo alarms etc.

Try holding the E-stop reset for 10 seconds or so, do other screens flash rapidly by?

Press the alarm key then the page down arrow, do other pages display?

The X Axis brake on, means the servos are not powered up yet. They are released with air pressure, once the servo are powered up.

Another area to check is inside the large electrical panel in the back. A foot or so to the right of the main disconnect and fuse assembly is a column of AB motor starters. Under each starter are it's overload "heaters" with a suitable white Reset button. Push all the reset buttons, they should have 3/8 - 1/2" of free travel. Any that don't have the same amount of travel as the others need a harder push to "reset" them. Any that are tripped can prevent things from starting up properly.

Along the bottom center of that panel is a green relay 1 1/4" square, I think it is marked 1.1 VDC. This relay is the field loss relay for the spindle motor, it needs to be closed to get out of E-stop.

About all I can do without looking at the page you were trying to post.
Bill

You posted the pix while I was composing this.

To troubleshoot the E-stop string, there is a terminal strip near the green relay. Hook the - lead of your meter to wire #90. Set the meter to measure 24 VDC. then check for 24 Volta at wire # 96, then 91, then 93, then 93, then 94. Do the checks in the order I have stated
The problem will be between the last place you measure 24 volts and the first place you don't have it.

All work checking for voltage on the E-stop string must be with 1 meter lead connected to wire #90, I normally place a short wire lead in the terminal strip just to make the hookup a bit more secure than clipping on the strip.
 
Hitandmiss,

Thank you for the detailed post. I have been poking around following what you had said. Before we had the information from Hardinge, we did a lot of testing around the wires #90-#94 searching for the means of the relay's power and searching along the chain. We had one printed sheet in the manual before getting the pdf, the page 4 from the pdf. From that we searched for the source of power and checked the continuity of the circuit. I was given a bit of a bad lead from the prior owners at work when they said tap the relay (28CR) with a hammer handle to stimulate a trip. 28CR that has #90-#94 going to and around it. Spent an afternoon looking at and around that region to see the source of problem.

I checked the motor overload/reset buttons again after you mentioned. All reset, no resistance or indication of change.

Looking at my photos, it says ALARM at the top where it says "X Axis Brake On".

Holding down the E-Stop button for 10 seconds does not cause anything to happen on the screen. It does cause a pneumatic valve located to the lower left of the front control panel to trigger. I tried holding it for a minute with no change.

I will try looking for the 24V at Cube Relay 28 tomorrow. If I recall correctly, we had no voltage there which was why we went to the front emergency stop button to see if it was getting 24V. This was why I am looking for relay 2.0


I did spell break and brake wrong as you noted. English is my only language and I suck at it.
 
When looking for the 24 Volts, you MUST use wire #90 as the - or minus terminal and NOT ground. Any readings to ground are meaningless.

Start on the diagnostics page and see if relay 2.0 is even closed. See the second line on my other post.
Relay 2.0 is a virtual relay in the ladder logic, with a small reed relay on the I/O board to do the actual switching. Messing around and applying external power to "get the pump running" can easily damage that reed relay.

No use poking around with a meter if relay 2.0 is not closed, and poking around and not using wire #90 as the - (minus) terminal is just as useless.

So the main questions are: Is 2.0 a 1 or a 0? Is wire #94 24 Volts with the E-stop button released?

I have a lot of questions on my other post that need answers to be able to help you other than in a general sense.
The drawings cover 3 and 4 axis machines and add another level of complexity if you have one.

Last questions:
1. Has this machine used oil or water for coolant?
2. Have you checked for proper phase rotation? Do you know how?
3. Is your power real 3 phase or a phase converter?

Knowing the answers to the questions I have asked gives me a better picture of what you actually have, and what I have to work with.
I don't know how to answer X question is a valid answer, I need to explain how to get the info I need.

Bill

P.S. You said:
"I will try looking for the 24V at Cube Relay 28 tomorrow. If I recall correctly, we had no voltage there which was why we went to the front emergency stop button to see if it was getting 24V. This was why I am looking for relay 2.0"

This is NOT what I have asked you to do, Please reread my other post and this one. I have laid out HOW to proceed with the problem(s) at hand.
 
I was back at the machine today doing some tests.

Questions:
1. Has this machine used oil or water for coolant?
Synthetic oil was used that was mixed with water.

2. Have you checked for proper phase rotation? Do you know how?
I do not know how to check for proper phase rotation. I did try rotating the phases (switching two of the main lines) on the machine.

3. Is your power real 3 phase or a phase converter?
It is real 3 phase.

Today's tests:
1. Holding down E-Stop Reset button for 10+ seconds results in no change. It does click the solenoid.

2. Testing vs wire #90 with a long lead wire
#91-0V
#92-0V
#93-0V
#94-0V
#95-0V
#96-0V
#100-2.2V

3. Pressing the RESET buttons on the motor overload had no resistance/no evidence of change to being depressed.

4. The green relay marked 1.1VDC. None of the wires going to the relay have voltage when the machine is on. I do not have a relay that can be manually turned on. There was a spare, brand new relay with the same part number in the cabinet. I replaced the relay with the new relay.

5. I have not found any source of 24V relative to #90, including at the E-stop button.

Photos of the errors (With me too!). Note: Low air pressure goes away when air is applied. No change other than air venting from the solenoid to the lower left of the control panel has been seen to occur when E-Stop reset is depressed with or without air.
Photo1218.jpgPhoto1219.jpg
 








 
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