I rebuilt a Hardinge Superslant, but I don't have SOP information
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    Default I rebuilt a Hardinge Superslant, but I don't have SOP information

    I rebuilt a Hardinge Superslant SB-3-GN. I have been running it for a month now and it has produced some beautiful results. The controller was replaced with the EMC/LinuxCNC interface. I have two jog wheels, one for X and the other for Z/W.

    The new control plate. Feed/Speed/Rapid controls. To be installed soon.

    User interface

    Cycles interface

    What the PLC and servos looks like



    I need to know a few things about SOP.

    1. Coolant
    I have never replaced coolant at a shop ever. The lathe came with a few gallons of coolant three years ago and since I got it working I have just added some water to. The coolant has blobs of grease in it. It is low on coolant. How does one clean/replace/dispose of coolant? What is the process for cleaning out the coolant?

    2. Turret setup
    How can I align the turret to the spindle? I placed a round-bore boring bar holder in the turret. Using a dial gauge in the spindle I found the bore out by 5 thou perpendicular to the X axis. I found the run out on the spindle to be under half a thou.

    3. Lubrication
    There is a pressure pot on the tailstock end of the machine. When I got the machine the regulator was leaking air. I replaced the regulator but do not know what to set the air pressure to. I cannot find that info. Not sure what oil to put in there too. I have way oil and spindle oil from my mill.

    4. Air leaks
    The turret and tailstock leak air. I found that the air motor valve on the turret was bleeding air heavily and replaced it. I then found that the turret lock valve was bleeding air through the valve. Not a lot, but noticeable. I am tempted to add an air valve to turn on/off the air to the turrets when the turrets are not spinning to reduce this air valve leak. Suggestions for fixing this?

    5. Oil leak on tailstock
    One time (only one time) I noticed a small trickle stream of hydraulic oil bleeding out of the air chamber on the tailstock. It did not trickle after that. No leaks since, but when it did leak it leaked about two cups of oil. I cannot find out why. I am keeping track of the oil in the hydraulic tank. Suggestions on fixing this?

    6. The collet draw bar
    I have never used a hydraulic draw bar. I have two 16C collets and one Kohm 3 jaw 170mm chuck. I see that I can change the hydraulic draw strength, but I do not 'truly' know what this means other than more pressure = more clamping. What should I know to safely use the collet chuck?

    7. Spindle drive maintenance
    The spindle motor is an original DC motor with 194 ohm resistance. It says it should be 180 ohm resistance. The break disk works, but I am unsure if there is maintenance for that. The gear for the encoder is a little worn. Is there any SOP for the spindle? Anything I need to check?

    8. Anything I should know about SOP of a Hardinge Superslant? Challenges and tips for running it? I have read the manual a few times.

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    Nice job of that retrofit. I really like Gmoccapy. Cool that you got Andy P's lathe macros integrated with it.

    Sorry I don't have any answers to you questions. You might try asking Andrew Mawson on madmodder.net. He has repaired and retrofitted a bunch of industrial lathes.
    Mark

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    I would do brush maintenance on all your DC motors. The Siemens motor uses field weakening to get the higher RPM's. things can get quite ugly when brushes wear down and loose contact.

    Lubrication is way oil, I would replace the Hardinge unit with a motor driven SLR type by Bijur or others.

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    My main questions are not new controller questions or motor related. I have those working well enough. I am interested in how the Hardinge Superslant is maintained.

    Except for the spindle, the machine is brushless. The brushes on the spindle were replaced 6 years ago, and 3 of those years it sat in my shop not spinning.

    I will get on the way oil.

    I have priced out a new spindle, but unless I have a reason larger than 'I want to have a nicer spindle motor with slightly better control' and 'I want to mount a secondary spindle motor to do live tooling broaching', I will not likely touch the spindle. If it breaks, well, yeah, I will replace it. But as is, that part isn't broken.

    I am most interested in fixing the old coolant. What does one do with old coolant? How does one properly remove the coolant and sludge from such a machine?

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    Pump the coolant sump, and then hand clean it. The old coolant is probably considered hazardous waste. Deal with it as you see fit. Get some synthetic water soluable cutting fluid, mix per mfg's direction....

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    If this machine will see intermittent use I would suggest taking a look at Oemeta Hycut coolant. The bactericide and cutting oil are separate components letting you adjust/correct concentrations independently. Also a aquarium bubbler in the tank would probably be a good idea to make the environment as inhospitable as possible for bacteria growth.

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    This looks great. I am going to look at a superslant tomorrow that I am pretty sure I will need to do a similar upgrade to. any info you can offer would be great.

    Thanks

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    How much do you want to know? How much do you know? I can provide a wiring diagram, pin out, and the program I made the machine with.

    Be expected to remove the old servo drives from the machine. That will be an additional $3-8k depending on what you want in speed and power. Mesa cards are cheap at around $500 for a pair to link everything up. About another $500 in other wires/equipment to link everything. I made a new control plate which is much more intuitive for me. Add about another $1k for computer, buttons, and interface stuff.

    Things that took me months to figure out:
    - There are two sets of wiring diagrams in the file "SB GN Eletrical Prints.pdf" which you can get from Hardinge, or you can find it online. One for G.N. wiring, and one for A.B. wiring. Make sure you know which version you have. Both are in the same document.
    - The PLC connects to the machine via DB25 cables. You want to super label those cables with their names (PL1-PL30) before you start pulling anything.
    - You will need ~50-80 inputs and ~50 outputs. As well, some outputs need to be sinking and some sourcing. I used a Mesa 7i86 for the special outputs and a 7i77 for the analog servo control on the spindle, but I ended up using every single input and output. I would suggest something with more inputs and outputs. And not using analog speed control as it sucks.
    - The turret tool encoder is at 12VDC. Everything else is 24VDC. If you put 24VDC to the turret, you will toast the whole thing. I did not, but word of warning.
    - The hall sensors for the endstops need pull up resistors.
    - Pressure sensors on the Hardinge machines die. Oil systems and air sensors may be shot.
    - The X axis has a pneumatic break on it. Apply air pressure to remove the break. You will want to replace the X servo and order one with a built-in electric break instead of using their old one You can link that air line up to a mist sprayer or something.
    - The solenoids in the turret get so hot they melt the tubing. May need to fix the tubing / turret pneumatics.

    I could go on and pratter for a while, but I don't know if I am saying anything useful. Send me a message or something. I could link on Discord and we could talk about it for a while if you like.

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    ALL your questions are answered in the manuals. You say you "read the manual" ... I can't believe that. Call up Hardinge and get all the manuals you don't have, everything is in them. All of them.

    Except for the coolant question, I guess. That's too basic for a machine tool manual. Do not add water to coolant. Only add coolant to water. If you need to top up, make a bucket of premix the correct way and add that.

    I like your project, pretty cool, but despise the interface. What a bunch of crap everywhere. That's not what you want or need for machining. This isn't a word processor, it's a lathe. When you are making parts you're supposed to pay attention, not play with your dick.

    But to each his own ...

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    To answer my own questions:
    1. Coolant is disposed of at a hazardous disposal site. Had to get a bunch of buckets and took them there. Was a pain.

    2. Turret spindle alignment I haven't solved. The manual did talk about what the various parts are on the spindle, but I haven't come across a page outlining how to calibrate the rotation of the head to ensure the tip is aligned.

    3. Lubrication was WayGold something something. I can look it up again. It was the same stuff I put on the mill for its ways.

    4. Air leaks. Lots of air leaks from the solenoids melting the plastic tubing. I had to replace all tubing in both turrets and then put fiberglass shielding I had from some high temp wire around the tubes so they would not melt again. Flaw in the original design it seems.

    5. Oil leak on tailstock was a small leak that, when I turned on the air, drove a large pool of oil that collected at the bottom of the tailstock turret to leak out. It isn't good and I am not 100% sure what caused it. Since replacing the air lines I am unsure if it will happen again.

    6. Hydraulic draw pressure. I don't have any solid info on it still other than low pressure = low gripping. Still looking, but unsure how solid an answer I can find.

    7. Spindle maintenance... I don't know. I did find that the aluminum encoder wheel had worn out significantly and had that replaced. It caused thread cutting issues. Below is a new vs the old sprocket. Incredible wear.


    8. SOP. Other than replacing coolant every few years, checking the hydraulic oil levels, and cleaning the spindle bore every time I change the chuck, I don't have much. Listen for air leaks, recalibrate the spindle and servos, clean the turret head of chips, replace the oil filter, replace the air filter, recharge the lubrication oil.... Now that I write this, I think the oil leaking from the tailstock may have been the WayGold. I have needed to refill that oil tank twice in a few years. Will be good to look into.


    EDIT: As for the interface, most of the interface is on the monitor. I do want a touch screen that I will get one day so I can ditch the keyboard. I would like an X and ZW jog buttons and one to switch between JOG, MDI, and PROG modes, but otherwise the control plate has been great. I mostly use the cycles window on the computer.

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    Dunno about this particular model lathe, but IIRC, the official Hardinge stance is to use straight oil as coolant. Soluble in water as coolant voided the warranty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    ALL your questions are answered in the manuals. You say you "read the manual" ... I can't believe that. Call up Hardinge and get all the manuals you don't have, everything is in them. All of them.

    Except for the coolant question, I guess. That's too basic for a machine tool manual. Do not add water to coolant. Only add coolant to water. If you need to top up, make a bucket of premix the correct way and add that.

    I like your project, pretty cool, but despise the interface. What a bunch of crap everywhere. That's not what you want or need for machining. This isn't a word processor, it's a lathe. When you are making parts you're supposed to pay attention, not play with your dick.

    But to each his own ...
    I think the idea is that you have so many buttons to distract you that you don't play with your dick.

    I'm kinda surprised that Hardinge were able to help him / op as much as they did. Maybe things are changing a bit ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitran View Post
    How much do you want to know? How much do you know? I can provide a wiring diagram, pin out, and the program I made the machine with.

    Be expected to remove the old servo drives from the machine. That will be an additional $3-8k depending on what you want in speed and power. Mesa cards are cheap at around $500 for a pair to link everything up. About another $500 in other wires/equipment to link everything. I made a new control plate which is much more intuitive for me. Add about another $1k for computer, buttons, and interface stuff.

    Things that took me months to figure out:
    - There are two sets of wiring diagrams in the file "SB GN Eletrical Prints.pdf" which you can get from Hardinge, or you can find it online. One for G.N. wiring, and one for A.B. wiring. Make sure you know which version you have. Both are in the same document.
    - The PLC connects to the machine via DB25 cables. You want to super label those cables with their names (PL1-PL30) before you start pulling anything.
    - You will need ~50-80 inputs and ~50 outputs. As well, some outputs need to be sinking and some sourcing. I used a Mesa 7i86 for the special outputs and a 7i77 for the analog servo control on the spindle, but I ended up using every single input and output. I would suggest something with more inputs and outputs. And not using analog speed control as it sucks.
    - The turret tool encoder is at 12VDC. Everything else is 24VDC. If you put 24VDC to the turret, you will toast the whole thing. I did not, but word of warning.
    - The hall sensors for the endstops need pull up resistors.
    - Pressure sensors on the Hardinge machines die. Oil systems and air sensors may be shot.
    - The X axis has a pneumatic break on it. Apply air pressure to remove the break. You will want to replace the X servo and order one with a built-in electric break instead of using their old one You can link that air line up to a mist sprayer or something.
    - The solenoids in the turret get so hot they melt the tubing. May need to fix the tubing / turret pneumatics.

    I could go on and pratter for a while, but I don't know if I am saying anything useful. Send me a message or something. I could link on Discord and we could talk about it for a while if you like.
    Just curious what motivated you to do all this in the first place ?

    Interesting hack / retrofit .

    Curious also in broad strokes of pros and cons of EMC/LinuxCNC interface / build versus a Fanuc or other commercial control retrofit other than $ ?

    I was wondering about how you might go about calibrating for pitch error compensation on your ball screws with the Linux cnc (in this case).

    Interesting how you put a literal tower PC in your electrical cabinet … Are there any pros and cons with that and how you boot the whole system / turning center up ?

    Probably with a bit of digging around one can figure out how best to align your turret / headstock. [I'm not sure that would be in most manuals (Mazak for example do / show one how to do that ?) not sure about Hardinge (if that's part of their 1/2 "secret sauce" ).]

    I think OX (moderator PM forum member and multiple Hardinge owner (mainly US-T series) and other has done quite a bit with Hardinge turrets ? ) you might or could put in an enquiry / thread starter on the main CNC forum at the appropriate point asking specifically about spindle / headstock and turret alignment.

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    Why? Because I wanted a CNC lathe and two of my friends (independently and they don't know each other other than one meeting) have made their own CNC lathe. I also made a bunch of 3D printers, a stepper motor gantry mill, and a laser cutter using the parallel port or GRBL and had started there first.

    Pros and Cons of EMC. EMC is rather cheap to get up and running. It has an active forum and is being updated constantly. If you go to the #LinuxCNC IRC channel you can talk to the guys who make it. The programming isn't too bad, but you would have to do that with any PLC.

    The tower is in the cabinet because I needed somewhere to put the computer. Many modern CNC machines are a Windows operating system that run a screen on top. I forget which, but one you tap in the top left hand corner and it minimizes the screen to the windows desktop. That is necessary for companies to write custom file transfer and product management.

    You don't need a powerful computer. The Mesa cards are PCI or PCI Express, so you need a computer tower. The computer can be old as the actual code to run the CNC hasn't changed that much over the last 20 years or more. The Mesa cards are FPGAs which can do some mighty fast processing for the servo controls. However, you may want some power so you can go online.

    I will look into your other thoughts. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitran View Post
    Many modern CNC machines are a Windows operating system ...
    Uhh, no. That went out of style about twenty years ago. Maybe thirty. It was never a good idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitran View Post
    How much do you want to know? How much do you know? I can provide a wiring diagram, pin out, and the program I made the machine with.

    Be expected to remove the old servo drives from the machine. That will be an additional $3-8k depending on what you want in speed and power. Mesa cards are cheap at around $500 for a pair to link everything up. About another $500 in other wires/equipment to link everything. I made a new control plate which is much more intuitive for me. Add about another $1k for computer, buttons, and interface stuff.

    Things that took me months to figure out:
    - There are two sets of wiring diagrams in the file "SB GN Eletrical Prints.pdf" which you can get from Hardinge, or you can find it online. One for G.N. wiring, and one for A.B. wiring. Make sure you know which version you have. Both are in the same document.
    - The PLC connects to the machine via DB25 cables. You want to super label those cables with their names (PL1-PL30) before you start pulling anything.
    - You will need ~50-80 inputs and ~50 outputs. As well, some outputs need to be sinking and some sourcing. I used a Mesa 7i86 for the special outputs and a 7i77 for the analog servo control on the spindle, but I ended up using every single input and output. I would suggest something with more inputs and outputs. And not using analog speed control as it sucks.
    - The turret tool encoder is at 12VDC. Everything else is 24VDC. If you put 24VDC to the turret, you will toast the whole thing. I did not, but word of warning.
    - The hall sensors for the endstops need pull up resistors.
    - Pressure sensors on the Hardinge machines die. Oil systems and air sensors may be shot.
    - The X axis has a pneumatic break on it. Apply air pressure to remove the break. You will want to replace the X servo and order one with a built-in electric break instead of using their old one You can link that air line up to a mist sprayer or something.
    - The solenoids in the turret get so hot they melt the tubing. May need to fix the tubing / turret pneumatics.

    I could go on and pratter for a while, but I don't know if I am saying anything useful. Send me a message or something. I could link on Discord and we could talk about it for a while if you like.
    Thanks for the detailed response, more than I expected. I looked at the machine today. Nice machine and will buy it. Still have to get it to my shop and see how well it does or doesn't work. The guy I am getting it off says it is in working condition, but from what I hear the age of the machine means it need to be upgraded any way. You have been through this already and seem to have alot of knowledge on it. I would like to be able to text or email you from time to time with questions and info if you willing. This is my first cnc lathe my others are all manual, but it do have a cnc mill that I built myself. I will work on getting the machine to my shop this week and then the night mares start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Uhh, no. That went out of style about twenty years ago. Maybe thirty. It was never a good idea.


    Mori-Seiki has done this with MAPPS for years. DMG Mori still does to this day with MAPPS. Which is extremely user friendly, along with being able to use CAPS to program without the need for CAD/CAM software.

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    I will be looking at a Hardinge SB 3- GN tomorrow. I will be retro-fitting it with something of the sort. Will be adding to my Dura-Turn 2550, Dura Vertical 5100 and DMG Mori NLX 2500. Will be used for milling castings to finished products.

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    Those turrets on those super slants with the hoakey air indexing motor were/are a joke. It'd be a great improvement to ditch the air motor and replace it with a servo. The spindle motor is low horsepower for the size of the machine as well. I wouldn't pay much money for the privilege of clearing one out of a shop for a prev. owner. In fact, consider having the PO pay YOU to make it go away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klight View Post
    Mori-Seiki has done this with MAPPS for years. DMG Mori still does to this day with MAPPS. Which is extremely user friendly, along with being able to use CAPS to program without the need for CAD/CAM software.
    Lots of people have put Windows front ends on real controllers. The craze for actually running the machine under Windows itself died off twenty years ago, because it was a disaster.


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