Identify/Help: ESM-59 Strange Spindle Features

Jarrod · Jan 22, 2021

Hi all. I figure I should ask before I take a hammer to it...

I'm throwing around the idea of replacing the spindle entirely with a custom spindle to accept 2J collets. I have a pile of 2J collets and think the extra size would do me well and it's a reasonably complicated project to add to my list of things to do.

I just want to sort out what I'm working with... all the posts I've seen and read so far the spindle's outboard end does not have the features that mine has, so removal may be a bit different in my case. I can't actually get to the rear headstock cover plate, because all this crap is in the way.

Photos to come... there are no options to add photos at the moment...

I have what appears to be a indexing ring, but the machine did not come with any additional auxiliary equipment for using it.

I can see that the locating ring stops short in the spindle, which suggests it is a separate piece, but does it screw on left or right?

I don't see any set screw holes anywhere, so I am a bit puzzled how to attack this one.

I understand I will probably destroy the existing bearings, but the spindle nose needs to be reground one way or another, so it's a risk I'm willing to take.

Thanks,

Jarrod

Jarrod · Jan 22, 2021

Updated to Windows 10 and now I can't add photos, go figure. Hopefully this link will work:

ESM-59 Spindle - Google Drive

jim rozen · Jan 22, 2021

There's a gear there apparently, maybe used for chase threading?

Also the remains of a collet closer, where the click pawl would engage.

L Vanice · Jan 22, 2021

The collar with the serrations (for a lever collet closer) pulls straight off the end of the spindle. The collar has a small key to prevent it from rotating on the spindle, which has a keyway. Some come off easily and I made a slide hammer to pull off the tight ones. The chasing attachment gear is mounted to the collar the same way the collar is mounted to the spindle.

I suspect you will have no wall thickness left if you bore out the 5C spindle to take 2J collets and a draw bar to fit a 2J collet. Hardinge did make headstocks to fit 6C (Cataract No. 6) collets before 1930. I have two of them and a bunch of 6C collets. The 6C and the 2J collet both have a 1.625" body diameter, but the 2J is shorter to cut down on overhang in the Sjogren chuck for which they were designed.

Larry

Jarrod · Jan 22, 2021

Ahhhhhh. Thanks Jim, Larry. I knew I could count on both of you to fill in the blanks.

I still have the complete and functional collet closer assembly, but what you're saying makes more sense.

I will see about removing the locating ring and the chasing gear and then see what's what.

I agree Larry, there was barely enough meat at the spindle nose when I started thinking it over with a 2J in hand. So I think it will need to be replaced completely.

If I am able to get to it I will post the conclusion.

Thanks again!

J.

jim rozen · Jan 22, 2021

If you need a bigger lathe, buy a bigger lathe. The 59 is a great machine for what it is. If you have a real job that needs bigger, go get that. Otherwise you are just in search of a solution that needs a problem.

Jarrod · Jan 23, 2021

jim rozen said:
...Otherwise you are just in search of a solution that needs a problem.

That's sounds like the story of my life and where all these tools and machines came from!

stephen thomas · Jan 23, 2021

How much more diameter do you need?

If you Remove the stack of set screws that constitute the collet key & hang either a Jacobs rubberflex or Sjogren 2J on the nose, the capacity through the spindle is 1.25”.
The spindle could probably be bored/ground out to accept 1-3/8” bar that is the max stock collet Jacobs size. (aftermarket used to be a available to 1-1/2” if the threaded nose closer face was also bored to that size).

Does your bed have the back T-slot for the chase threading rig?
I have (and use) a couple complete cataract era with chase threading, always wanted one of the later Elmira steel base cabinet models. The ones that went by on eBay over the years were too far away, too far gone, or “optimistically” priced. There is one in use locally absent the chase threading attachment, so i have seen them.

smt

Jarrod · Jan 24, 2021

Hi Stephen,

It does in fact have a t-slot on the rear of the bed. What does the chasing assembly look like?

J.

stephen thomas · Jan 24, 2021

chasethred3[IMG]

See if ^^^^this^^^^ sticks.
smt

Trying as a link.....

chasethred3

Nope. Sorry.
Might try later from PC which is buried do to ongoing construction here.
Don’t have the facility from ipad.

Smt8

IrbyJones · Jan 24, 2021

In the meanwhile, you can see Stephen's thread chasing attachment in this thread at post #7.

Hardinge DV-59 - thread chasing attachment

Irby

jim rozen · Jan 24, 2021

Another good description:

Cataract Lathe Accessories

L Vanice · Jan 24, 2021

Jarrod said:
Hi Stephen,

It does in fact have a t-slot on the rear of the bed. What does the chasing assembly look like?

J.

Larry

stephen thomas · Jan 26, 2021

Thanks, Irby!

Jim & Larry’s posts should further clarify.

Great set up if you need to do a run of short threaded parts.
Normal set up for OD thread is out/away from spindle; so once dialed in and personally “in the groove” rpm can be dialed up and passes ripped off at a steady clip. Faster to much faster than on a typical engine lathe.

Unfortunately, though, if the machined thread is not an integral multiple of the hob thread, the process is much more cumbersome. Slower & more convoluted process than on an engine lathe. The process between passes becomes similar to cutting metric threads on an inch based engine lathe to keep the thread in time.

IrbyJones · Jan 26, 2021

stephen thomas said:
Thanks, Irby!

Jim & Larry’s posts should further clarify.

Great set up if you need to do a run of short threaded parts.
Normal set up for OD thread is out/away from spindle; so once dialed in and personally “in the groove” rpm can be dialed up and passes ripped off at a steady clip. Faster to much faster than on a typical engine lathe.
<snip>

"ripped off at a steady clip" - the fellow in the video mentioned in the following thread sure qualifies for that description!

Plus the video shows a thread chasing attachment in action even if it's not exactly the one we're talking about.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...reading-mechanism-video-how-does-he-do-358918

Irby

Jarrod · Jan 26, 2021

That's crazy!

Jarrod · Jan 26, 2021

Thanks Larry.
The machine actually came with a few of those parts.

L Vanice · Jan 26, 2021

stephen thomas said:
...Unfortunately, though, if the machined thread is not an integral multiple of the hob thread, the process is much more cumbersome. Slower & more convoluted process than on an engine lathe. The process between passes becomes similar to cutting metric threads on an inch based engine lathe to keep the thread in time.

This type of attachment is only meant to be used as the table I posted (#13) indicates, with integer ratios of the leadscrew pitch. Hardinge would make any leadscrew you wanted, even metric. And they came in two different lengths, though I only have one long hob (leadscrew).

However, Hardinge did have an assigned patent, no. 1497109 issued 10 Jun, 1924, that showed a way to add a threading dial to the chasing attachment so that non-integer ratios could be used. The dial functioned pretty much like the dials on common engine lathes. I actually saw one of those dials and associated chasing parts in a basement shop in Chicago in the 1980's, but did not buy it. It could be the only one they ever made. I got a lot of old Hardinge stuff in Chicago back then.

The chasing attachment is most useful for fine pitch threads in brass or aluminum that can be cut in a single pass. Think lens mounts in optical devices. The Hardinge HCT chuckers use the same sort of system, though without the gears, so they need a separate master for each pitch to be cut, along with a mating follower.

Larry

stephen thomas · Jan 26, 2021

My first lathe was an ESM & it only came with 5 hobs, 3 of which were the same pitch. I made one more so have 4 pitches total. But the yard sale ESM also came with a nice sized box of gears,banjos, and all the assorted little doo-dads to mount them, so i used it for a couple years for any pitch, RH or LH that came along. Still quite a step up from single point threading acme, and metric camera & lens mount stuff on a milldrill as i had up to that point.

Contrary to what Larry notes, the attachment works fine

for any thread form, and for moderately coarse pitches up (down?) to at least 8 tpi. If you look at the post/pix that Irby posted for me, the part is a modified square thread (5 deg flank) 7/16” - 14.
Small batches of those were run for the infill planes i used to make, as well as the differential screws for the adjusters. Another product for a while was batches of 3/4” & 7/8” body collets for old Greenlee & Oliver mortise machines.

As with any single point operation, there comes a material/length/diameter where using the TS saves time even though it is a nuisance to wind it in & out between loading parts.

The guy in the video seems to be leaving the final depth set and using either “feel” or possibly a cam when that lever near the tool rotates, to step down to size. I screw the top slide down in increments to my pre-determined target number.

smt

Jarrod · Feb 5, 2021

Thanks again for all tye details.

Any suggestion of age with a serial number: 59-18856?

Identify/Help: ESM-59 Strange Spindle Features

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