Identifying Hardinge VBS-R lathe

tonlin · Oct 15, 2014

Can anyone familiar with this model tell me where to find the serial number?

Thanks,
TJ

L Vanice · Oct 15, 2014

Look around on the back of the headstock. On a similar model the number is stamped on top of the boss where the lever collet closer mounts.

Larry

tonlin · Oct 15, 2014

Thanks, Larry, I'll check it out.

TJ

tonlin · Oct 24, 2014

Ok, I am more confused than ever after finding "DV59 17455" stamped on the back of the head and "VBS-R" stamped on a plate inside an access panel to the original electrical wiring. Can anyone clear this up?

Also, from the pictures, can anyone tell me what kind of electrical set up I have on this machine? I am guessing that it was originally 3-phase converted by ?? to run on single phase 240?

Thanks, TJ

L Vanice · Oct 25, 2014

Hardinge had several series of serial numbers. The DV, DSM and VBS machine group were all numbered in the same series of numbers, beginning with DV59. My number chart stops at 9660 in 1966, so your machine is much newer.

You have a single phase dual voltage electrical plug, but that may be a mistake by an amateur electrician. It works for three phase, but it is wrong for three phase. Next job is see if the motor is the original three phase.

The electrical plate seems to say the motor is 460 (hard to read) V three phase. Look at the motor name plate and see if agrees. The three transformers hung on the back of the lathe are probably to allow a 230 V three phase power supply to run the 460 V box and may have been added when the plug was installed.

Larry

tonlin · Oct 26, 2014

Hey Larry, thanks much. The plate does indeed say 460 and further says"wiring diagram vcd-3220" if that means anything. Keep in mind that I am nearly as ignorant about electricity as lathes; do you think I have a three phase system just dropped down from high voltage to low?
TJ

L Vanice · Oct 26, 2014

"Next job is see if the motor is the original three phase." That means look at the plate on the motor.

Larry

tonlin · Oct 27, 2014

L Vanice said:
"Next job is see if the motor is the original three phase." That means look at the plate on the motor.

Larry

Larry, the motor is hidden behind some hardware/support brackets so that I cannot see much of it or get to it at all without taking the whole thing apart.....which I would rather not do unless critical to making progress.

What do you think? Shouldn't I be ok assuming the motor is 460 since it looks original as well as the original electrical panel that says its 460?

TJ

L Vanice · Oct 27, 2014

Light and mirror works in many cases. There is a panel on the back of the cabinet to give access to the motor.

But it is pretty easy to tell a three phase motor from a capacitor start single phase motor without seeing the name plate. Capacitor housings are large, much larger than a junction box, and easy to see, but can be on top or on one side of the motor housing.

Larry

tonlin · Oct 27, 2014

L Vanice said:
Light and mirror works in many cases. There is a panel on the back of the cabinet to give access to the motor.

But it is pretty easy to tell a three phase motor from a capacitor start single phase motor without seeing the name plate.

Larry

Aha!! I will take a closer look...I think the access panel on the back is covered by the hanging converter system so I will remove it to see if I can get at the motor from the back. Otherwise, its smoke and mirrors time!

How do you tell a three phase from a "capacitor start single phase motor"? By the capacitor cover sticking up off the main body cover?

Thanks, Larry.

TJ

tonlin · Oct 30, 2014

tonlin said:
Aha!! I will take a closer look...I think the access panel on the back is covered by the hanging converter system so I will remove it to see if I can get at the motor from the back. Otherwise, its smoke and mirrors time!

How do you tell a three phase from a "capacitor start single phase motor"? By the capacitor cover sticking up off the main body cover?

Thanks, Larry.

TJ

Ok, I have now determined that the motor is a 3-phase by using a mirror :cool:

to read the plate. (Still don't know how to tell a 3-phase motor from a single phase just by looking at it though.............

)

Back to my first question, do I have a converter of some kind that is converting the 3-phase to single or is it just reducing the 3-phase from 460 volts to 230?

Thanks,
TJ

L Vanice · Oct 30, 2014

From post #9, as edited a few minutes later, but not re-read by you: "But it is pretty easy to tell a three phase motor from a capacitor start single phase motor without seeing the name plate. Capacitor housings are large, much larger than a junction box, and easy to see, but can be on top or on one side of the motor housing."

Three equal size transformers means the three phase voltage is being changed.

Larry

tonlin · Oct 30, 2014

L Vanice said:
From post #9, as edited a few minutes later, but not re-read by you: "But it is pretty easy to tell a three phase motor from a capacitor start single phase motor without seeing the name plate. Capacitor housings are large, much larger than a junction box, and easy to see, but can be on top or on one side of the motor housing."

Three equal size transformers means the three phase voltage is being changed.

Larry

Thanks, Larry. You are right, I sure didn't realize you had edited part of #9, sorry to be so redundant and dense about this, but as I said earlier, I am very ignorant about electricity, as well as many other things.

I have some kind of flat large box on the end of my cabinet that has lots of wiring in it and switches/buttons on the front. This box has a flexible conduit with wires going out the back of it into the three transformers which in turn have a short rubber sheathed wire with the 120/240 plug at the end.

So, if I follow you correctly, I probably have an original 3-phase motor converted/transformed to a single phase, most likely 240 volt? Or am I still lost?? :willy_nilly:

TJ

L Vanice · Oct 30, 2014

Lost, indeed. I said, "Three equal size transformers means the three phase voltage is being changed." I thought it was obvious that the three transformers need three phase power in.

I can almost remember back when I bought my first three phase machine and had to figure out all this stuff. It was around 1978 and I had had electrical engineering classes in school, but they did not prepare me for building my own phase converter and other practical aspects of machine wiring. What seems obvious now was all mystery then.

Larry

tonlin · Oct 31, 2014

L Vanice said:
Lost, indeed. I said, "Three equal size transformers means the three phase voltage is being changed." I thought it was obvious that the three transformers need three phase power in.

I can almost remember back when I bought my first three phase machine and had to figure out all this stuff. It was around 1978 and I had had electrical engineering classes in school, but they did not prepare me for building my own phase converter and other practical aspects of machine wiring. What seems obvious now was all mystery then.

Larry

Larry,

My own vast ignorance is bringing a chuckle to myself. If you had electrical engineering courses, try to imagine how silly it is for an ignoramus like myself who has obviously had zero training in the field of electricity (assuming almost electrocuting myself a few times doesn't count), trying to understand your fine guidance on the subject! :nutter:

Nonetheless, try to hang in there with me because I think I am close!

Let's try this:

Pick ONE:

1. I have a high voltage (460 volt) 3-phase motor being transformed to low voltage (240 volt) 3-phase.

2. I have a 3-phase motor being transformed to single phase.

3. I have neither of the above.

I am hoping this approach will help you get through to me. Regardless, thanks again for trying to educate me, sure appreciate the effort.

TJ

stephen thomas · Oct 31, 2014

There is nothing in what you show to indicate that the machine is other than 3ph, 480v motor, _probably_ reduced through transformers to 240 v input.

You still need to build a rotary phase converter out of a surplus motor to power it. Or buy a VFD. Showing _my_ ignorance, I'm not clear on how well a VFD plays through step up transformers, or if that is a factor at all.

I have a number of 480 through 575v machines in 2 shops (wood and metal shops) and power them with shop contrived rotary phase converters through step up transformers with no issues. The only VFD in these shops is on the (metal) planer and it is 240 in/240 out to a ~1916 800rpm motor, works well.

smt

L Vanice · Oct 31, 2014

tonlin said:
...Pick ONE:

1. I have a high voltage (460 volt) 3-phase motor being transformed to low voltage (240 volt) 3-phase.

2. I have a 3-phase motor being transformed to single phase.

3. I have neither of the above.

I am hoping this approach will help you get through to me. Regardless, thanks again for trying to educate me, sure appreciate the effort.

TJ

"1. I have a high voltage (460 volt) 3-phase motor being transformed to low voltage (240 volt) 3-phase [input]." is the winner.

Forget the VFD. You will not want to learn how to wire it. If you do not have 220V three phase power available, you want a 240V rotary phase converter.

Larry

tonlin · Oct 31, 2014

Thanks much, Larry and Steve. You guys deserve a round of applause for educating a knucklehead like me to understand what I have! Kudos!

I actually have a pretty decent phase converter already installed in the shop for running regular 3-phase machines. It is hard wired into three different 3-phase wall outlets so all I have to do to run a 3-phase wired machine is to plug it into one of the dedicated outlets, turn on the converter and go. If a casual observer were looking at one my 3-phase machines plugged into the outlet he would wrongly assume that I had 3-phase power direct into the shop because I am using 3-phase outlets and plugs for the 3-phase machines. (Of course, I have to run the converter).

Since we have now figured out that my Hardinge is (probably) still a 3-phase machine (just transformed to lower voltage) should one of my dedicated 3-phase wall outlets run it with the converter turned on.... provided I change the current plug end to a typical four-prong 3-phase end that is compatible with the outlet? If I am on the right track here, is there a better way to get it under power?

Thank you, gentlemen.

TJ

L Vanice · Oct 31, 2014

Yes, I would put a 240V three phase plug on the lathe and run a smoke test. Actually, you can do some testing with an ohmmeter on the existing plug first just to check for shorts and short to ground errors. You do have fuses/overload relays on the lathe, right? You have a 50-50 chance of getting the rotation direction right the first time.

Larry

tonlin · Nov 3, 2014

L Vanice said:
Yes, I would put a 240V three phase plug on the lathe and run a smoke test. Actually, you can do some testing with an ohmmeter on the existing plug first just to check for shorts and short to ground errors. You do have fuses/overload relays on the lathe, right? You have a 50-50 chance of getting the rotation direction right the first time.

Larry

Hi Larry,

Does the attached picture of my lathe's electrical box contents show any "fuses/overload relays"? I don't know if I have them or not. What is a "smoke test"?

Thanks again.

TJ

Identifying Hardinge VBS-R lathe

Aluminum

Diamond

Aluminum

Aluminum

Attachments

Diamond

Aluminum

Diamond

Aluminum

Diamond

Aluminum

Aluminum

Diamond

Aluminum

Diamond

Aluminum

Diamond

Diamond

Aluminum

Diamond

Aluminum

Similar threads