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Need help getting Hardinge HLV Carriage Feed Controller working

rickbrennan

Plastic
Joined
Jan 19, 2018
Location
Boulder, Colorado, USA
I bought an early HLV some months ago. It is a 3-phase 240v machine and I have rewired it to operate the main drive and coolant pump using VFDs to convert 240 single phase to the three phase needed for the motors. I've removed to old control system and wired to get spindle forward, reverse, high and low speed operating and I'm now on to getting the carriage feed to work properly.

There was no wiring diagram with the machine and my tracing of the old control system had the carriage feed controller hooked up to a 120v ac transformer. When I apply 120v ac line voltage to the controller, nothing happens.

I could use a wiring diagram and some help troubleshooting the controller and drive motor. The controller panel has on/off, high/low, and left/right switches and a status light around the large speed control knob. The carriage feed motor is 90V dc 1/15hp.

Assistance would be sincerely appreciated.
 
..getting the carriage feed to work properly.

There was no wiring diagram with the machine and my tracing of the old control system had the carriage feed controller hooked up to a 120v ac transformer. When I apply 120v ac line voltage to the controller, nothing happens.
.
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The controller panel has on/off, high/low, and left/right switches and a status light around the large speed control knob. The carriage feed motor is 90V dc 1/15hp.

Motor is "brushed". Most of any age need NEW brushes and the commutator dressed with a stone sold for the purpose - $7 and up, ELSE taken apart and lathe-turned - mebbe new bearings while yer at it. Have a care with doing "PM" motors. Some are easily harmed.

"Undercutting the mica" is very rarely needed. The materials that replaced natural sheet mica are intended to wear or sort of self-destruct at their edges in such a manner they mostly match the wear on the Copper with no need of help.

Seconding Car2 on an all-new packaged controller.

I BENCH test my fractional HP Bison & Bodine DC motors with a spare Eurotherm 507 SSD.

I RUN them - out in the hostile working world - off MEMA 1 or NEMA-4X "washdown" sealed KB-Penta 4Q drives. It's just EASIER that way to not have to deal with contactors nor relays, fussy mounts, nor DIY'ing enclosures to protect them from being smacked around, deluged with oil, coolants, chips, swarf, nor even my sloppy cleaning up with sprays and solvents.

This one is tiny enough as to HP draw, yah might want to box a smaller "chassis mount" KB, Minarik, Danfoss-Graham, Dart, etc.. Even so, the "overkill" of a 4Q drive make commissioning easier, No contactrs. Tons of options. Then provides better load regulation and RPM holding as a built-in bonus.

2C .. and "many" DC motors worth. 1/15 HP to 5 HP.
 
Congrats on getting that rewired to work off of VFD's.

It sounds like you have an older-model control, which I'm not familiar with. But, in any case, the newer controls (and I assume the older ones) do have 120VAC input to the speed-control box. You can apply 0-90 VDC to the motor to check its operation (might want to use a current-limited, or fused, power supply for safety); the motor is probably OK,can check and clean the brushes if something flaky is going on (probably good to do anyway).

There's probably no point in trying to troubleshoot or repair the ancient potted speed-control. Modern solid-state 90vdc motor-controllers are common, and here is a good thread on the installation of one. There are many options for the exact type/brand of controller and switches.
The Hardinge wiring diagram does not have specific detail on that controller module, it's just labelled as "PF Module", with the input/output and switches described.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...g-picture-needed-322391/?highlight=iron+horse


Cheers
Thanks for the quick reply. I'll go with a new motor controller. My guess is you've saved me a ton of time with your advice.
 
Motor is "brushed". Most of any age need NEW brushes and the commutator dressed with a stone sold for the purpose - $7 and up, ELSE taken apart and lathe-turned - mebbe new bearings while yer at it. Have a care with doing "PM" motors. Some are easily harmed.

"Undercutting the mica" is very rarely needed. The materials that replaced natural sheet mica are intended to wear or sort of self-destruct at their edges in such a manner they mostly match the wear on the Copper with no need of help.

Seconding Car2 on an all-new packaged controller.

I BENCH test my fractional HP Bison & Bodine DC motors with a spare Eurotherm 507 SSD.

I RUN them - out in the hostile working world - off MEMA 1 or NEMA-4X "washdown" sealed KB-Penta 4Q drives. It's just EASIER that way to not have to deal with contactors nor relays, fussy mounts, nor DIY'ing enclosures to protect them from being smacked around, deluged with oil, coolants, chips, swarf, nor even my sloppy cleaning up with sprays and solvents.

This one is tiny enough as to HP draw, yah might want to box a smaller "chassis mount" KB, Minarik, Danfoss-Graham, Dart, etc.. Even so, the "overkill" of a 4Q drive make commissioning easier, No contactrs. Tons of options. Then provides better load regulation and RPM holding as a built-in bonus.

2C .. and "many" DC motors worth. 1/15 HP to 5 HP.

Thanks. Time to get smart about 90v controllers. I do like the VFD setup with the control I get over the spindle. I'd planned on refurbishing the motor. The beast that drives my spindle needed new bearings and leads and runs beautifully now.
 
1) exactly what vintage of feed motor control do you have on the machine.

2) if it is the variac, mechanically coupled to a power variable reistor, keep that.

Hardinge has used many versions of the speed controller.

First was the one I mentioned above, uses selenium rectifiers.
There was a later one, with a potted module, with the speed control pot sticking out the front. Those burned out frequently. The tip off was they would either run not at all, or full speeed.
Then there was a replacement that involved two circuit boards, one populated with ceramic power resistors. In the beginning the install directions for those were wrong and they would self destruct on application of power. I do have a reverse engineered schematic for those. somewhere.

I would say be sure the controller is getting power to the correct terminals inside the control box enclosure, before swapping anything out. Did this feed motor work correctly before the VFD was retrofitted?
 
1) exactly what vintage of feed motor control do you have on the machine.

2) if it is the variac, mechanically coupled to a power variable reistor, keep that.

Hardinge has used many versions of the speed controller.

First was the one I mentioned above, uses selenium rectifiers.
There was a later one, with a potted module, with the speed control pot sticking out the front. Those burned out frequently. The tip off was they would either run not at all, or full speeed.
Then there was a replacement that involved two circuit boards, one populated with ceramic power resistors. In the beginning the install directions for those were wrong and they would self destruct on application of power. I do have a reverse engineered schematic for those. somewhere.

I would say be sure the controller is getting power to the correct terminals inside the control box enclosure, before swapping anything out. Did this feed motor work correctly before the VFD was retrofitted?

Jim, I bought the HLV (not HLV-H) in non-running condition. My shop has single phase power only and most of my machines are vintage three phase, so I've gotten good at setting up VFD-based control. After reading a bunch of posts on running HLV's on VFD power, I decided to bypass the old control system and power the spindle motor high-low windings directly through the high-low switch. I removed the physical brake and use the VFD with a braking resistor to stop the spindle motor.

I've applied power to the 120v input wires on the controller and confirmed that the on/off switch and feeds to the large potentiometer are getting power. I stopped there and started looking for a wiring diagram to see if I can figure out how the controller works.

I've included pictures of the feed motor controller - not sure which version I have. IMG_1011.jpgIMG_1014.JPGIMG_1012.jpg
 
Jim, I bought the HLV (not HLV-H) in non-running condition. My shop has single phase power only and most of my machines are vintage three phase, so I've gotten good at setting up VFD-based control. After reading a bunch of posts on running HLV's on VFD power, I decided to bypass the old control system and power the spindle motor high-low windings directly through the high-low switch. I removed the physical brake and use the VFD with a braking resistor to stop the spindle motor.

I've applied power to the 120v input wires on the controller and confirmed that the on/off switch and feeds to the large potentiometer are getting power. I stopped there and started looking for a wiring diagram to see if I can figure out how the controller works.

I've included pictures of the feed motor controller - not sure which version I have. View attachment 292647View attachment 292648View attachment 292649

A fairly early one, that I've never personally seen on an HLVH - most times I've seen the hi/low switch version, in photos, on chuckers. That's a variac, btw.

I do think yours originally had two selenium rectifiers if it was from the vintage I think it is, which means a former owner may have swapped in silicon
bridge diodes,a bit tough to see whats going on for sure.

So you are right, upgrading to an aftermarket dc controller is one option. If you wanted to rehabilitate the original supply the I suggest you trace out the existing wiring and generate a schematic for what it is right now, and see if you can come up with an as-built version to compare. My HLVH (1958 vintage) does have current limiting resistors under the bed, so be alert for any disconnected leads emerging from there.
 
Thermite, I've started looking into 90V controllers and realized I'm not sure of the functionality I need for this use case. For example, from Automation Direct (were I get most of my automation hardware) there are several offerings:

- for $65 ($150 with the reversing switch) the GSD3-240-2CL takes 120v or 240v input, 25:1 speed range, no dynamic braking, no plugging capability, no thermal protection, and uses an $85 reversing switch (GSDA-MREV).
https://cdn.automationdirect.com/static/specs/gsd3dcdrives.pdf

- the other candidate is the GSD7-120-1CR3. $175. 120v input, 50:1 speed range, handles 3 reversing cycles per minute, .5 second fixed acceleration and deceleration time, dynamic braking, plugging capable, current limiting thermal protection.
https://cdn.automationdirect.com/static/specs/gsd7dcdrives.pdf

Seems like a no-brainer, if I need reversing capability, short accel/decel times, and thermal protection, the extra $25 seems cheap for a much more robust controller. Not sure if "plugging" (a method of rapidly changing motor direction by reversing motor armature polarity while the motor is still running) is needed or even usable with this motor . . .

Am I missing anything?
 
For an HLVH you don't need fast starts/stops for the feed motor. You use the clutches on the apron for that. Those motors
run steady state when turned on for use.
 
Yep, they run all the time when turned "on", I wish they had a light to indicate the switch was in the rt/left on mode. I don't notice the motor is running and leave it on 90% of the time when not needed. On the newer control, I didn't see a simple way to cobble in an on/off indicator light on the output side of the "rt/left" switch, since its 0-90 volts going thru there...Cheers

Either.. replace with a switch with an extra set of independent contacts,

ELSE, put a (very) few stages of reasonably high-current-capable diode-junction drop in series. Silicon is typically 0.6 V per junction, then run a low-voltage LED with current-limiting off the Voltage drop.

Unlike a resistor, a semiconductor's partial-circuit "forward drop" will be near-as-dammit the same, all operating voltages for the "full" circuit.

This can be done as bi-directional if on the reversing output side.

And then.. there are packaged single mount LED's that fire green for one polarity, red the other, and a sort of pinkish orangey yellow colour off constantly reversing or AC input.

First time I did this, to monitor brake & turn-signal tail-lights for burnt-out lamps, 1968 FIAT [1], I used a single-stage of drop then a transistor as amplifier/driver. A "PUT", or Programmable Unijunction Transistor, IIRC.

And there's yer indicator WITH built-in direction of rotation "tell" as well.

[1] FIAT had OEM lamped-up from Philips. They asked for 12V lamps. they GOT 12V lamps. That's how Philips applies their Lucas license to produce "the dark" whilst claiming virtue off lower energy per Lumen.... and sells the Hell out of replacement lamps.

Any other supplier to the AUTOMOTIVE industry knew that the charging process runs the electricals around 15 V, not 12 V, and supplied lamps MARKED 12 V, but optimized for 15 V ....and "generally" meant to stand 18 V indefinitely, Lumens per Watt secondary to suddenly going dark and "invisible" at speed on a nightime road.

Hell itself will have to go dark before I buy another Philips product, lo fifty years and counting.
 
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A fairly early one, that I've never personally seen on an HLVH - most times I've seen the hi/low switch version, in photos, on chuckers. That's a variac, btw.

I do think yours originally had two selenium rectifiers if it was from the vintage I think it is, which means a former owner may have swapped in silicon bridge diodes,a bit tough to see whats going on for sure.

So you are right, upgrading to an aftermarket dc controller is one option. If you wanted to rehabilitate the original supply the I suggest you trace out the existing wiring and generate a schematic for what it is right now, and see if you can come up with an as-built version to compare. My HLVH (1958 vintage) does have current limiting resistors under the bed, so be alert for any disconnected leads emerging from there.
Attached is the schematic I created (today!) for our 1956 HLV-BK, along with two pictures. It's the early kind with selenium rectifiers, and it still works. I have not looked for any series resistors under the bed ...
 

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  • 20201128_HLV-BK_Carriage_Speed_Control-1.jpg
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