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What Kind ATF For My HLV-H

jake_1213

Plastic
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Location
McKeesport,Pa
Hi guys..
Just got a sweet 1977 HLV-H and was going over some things before I fire it up. Looks like it could use a little oil in the carriage to top off the site plug. The plate says use TYPE "A" ATF. I've been workin on cars since 1978 and never heard of this stuff. Man do I feel stupid! and I tought I new everything. If I ask the guy at the autoparts store he'll think I finally lost it. Anyone out there care to help me out with what your using.
While I have your attention what is a good all around cutting oil for the coolant tank........Jake

Oh! special thanks to Jim Caudill for your help
 
In the early years when Gm had all the automatic trans ATF was "type A". When Ford came out with their own trans, they used a fluid with a different set of additives, giving a different set of friction specifications, and this was termed "type F". Later on came all the Dexrons and Mercons and etc.
AFAIK, the various Dexrons are backwards compatible with type A.
Dave
 
Apron oil

Mobile 300 or 350 is reccomended (I believe the 300 is no longer available), The oil is available in one pint cans directly from Hardinge. Do not use the red ATF fluid - it often causes the chutches to chatter. If this fluid has been used drain it and fill the apron with kerosene and run the power feed - this will take the glaze off the cork and plate assemblies. After this procedure drain the apron and refill with the proper fluid.
 
The lube plate on my HLVH (sn 330) simply calls out "ATF" for the carriage
reservoir. I've been putting the red automotive ATF fluid in there for about
15 years now and have never seen any clutch chatter.

Do the newer ones specify that mobil number on the plate? Perhaps they
changed the clutch material over the years.

Jim
 
That's been my experience as well, Jim. I switched to the synthetic Mobil ATF when they started selling it, but no clutch chatter with it either...just silky smooth operation.

Mike
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the clutch chatter resulted from using Type F automatic transmission fluid. Ford C4 and C6 automatic transmissions -- possibly others, but I really don't remember -- were designed to use a "sticky" fluid to increase the friction between the transmission's band lining and drums once the thickness of the fluid layer was reduced to the adsorbed film. Putting the prior-art Type A fluid used in GM, Chrysler, and Borg-Warner automatic transmissions in a Ford C4 or C6 caused properly-adjusted bands to slip, while putting the Ford-specification Type F fluid in a GM, Mopar, or B-W transmission caused a sudden, jerky, engagement of properly-adjusted bands.

GM's Dexron-specification ATF was an evolutionary improvement of the Type A / Suffix A ATF, and was eventually approved for use in existing and then specified for use in newer versions of the Chrysler and B-W automatic transmissions.

As Dave mentions, the later-generation Dexrons are supposed to be backward-compatible with earlier-generation Dexron and Type A / Suffix A fluids, although I've heard rumors that Dexron IV and later are only marginally satisfactory in early transmissions.

Bottom line: Dexron III is the available "dead dinosaur" replacement for the obsolete Type A automatic transmission fluid, and a synthetic ATF that is an appropriate substitute for Dexron III should be even better.

John
 
I am fascinated by this, I have been running my HLV for 5 years on hydraulic oil for 5 years without any problems, I am using the macine most days. Have I got to change over to ATF or do I leave things alone?
Peter
 
Looking at the exploded view of the apron and recalling my own disassembly/cleaning operation years ago when I bought the lathe, it looks like there are several different elements inside it that replicate those in an automatic transmission - needle bearings, ball bearings, sleeve (plain) bearings, constantly meshed gears, and clutches. Each of those has its own peculiar needs with respect to "perfect" lubrication. I suppose that may be why Hardinge specified the ATF fluid to start with. I doubt that you've caused any significant wear due to the hydraulic fluid - everything is bathed in it 24/7 anyway - but you might want to think about changing it at a convenient opportunity just in pursuit of that elusive perfection, however it's defined. It's a problem to change completely because there is no drain plug (at least on my old 1966 HLV-H) but if you remove the carriage wheel (three 1/4" bolts) most of it will drain out and you can suck out the rest with a small plastic line if you feel so inclined.

- Mike
 
Peter at then risk of starting the fire storm on oild that crops up oftenI will tell you that ATF is basically an antiwear hydraulic oil with a red dye in it.
 
I would agree with you, which is why I think no lasting harm has been done with Peter's use of his lubricant. We're talking "lubrication on the margins" here. If you consider a non-production environment, there's probably no reason to change. On the other hand, we seem to be (as a community) pursuers of perfection, even when that perfection may represent only a 0.1% improvement in anticipated advantage. Personally, I wouldn't change the fluid until I had a dead spot in activity that made it convenient, but then I'm a bit laid back from the lubrication standpoint. Look at all the folks who swear by chain bar oil... :-)
- Mike
 
... It's a problem to change completely because there is no drain plug (at least on my old 1966 HLV-H) but if you remove the carriage wheel (three 1/4" bolts) most of it will drain out and you can suck out the rest with a small plastic line if you feel so inclined.

Mike, my 1965 HLV-H has a drain plug on the bottom of the apron. It's impossible to see because the lip of the table tray goes up just high enough to obscure it. Furthermore, unlike most drain plugs this one uses a recessed allen head. If you look at your carriage feed motor's right-angle gearbox, then put your hand on the bottom of the apron dead in the middle of the output spindle of that gearbox, you can feel the little sucker recessed up in there. The bottom interior of the apron slopes downwards from both sides to this point, so if you pop that little drain plug out you will get as close to a 100% draining of fluid as is possible.

OK, the ONLY reason I know this is that I just finished rebuilding my apron gearbox about a month ago! If you ask me again in six months, you'll just get a blank stare :-)

Hope this helps.
Dave
 
OK, the ONLY reason I know this is that I just finished rebuilding my apron gearbox about a month ago! If you ask me again in six months, you'll just get a blank stare :-)

Ah! That's the reason - the old blank stare syndrome! :eek: I went through mine maybe ten years ago, and somehow had the definite impression there was no drain plug. I probably got the neurons crossed with another machine...it's gotta be the same as yours. Thanks for the reminder!

Ask me again in six months and I'll most likely swear there is no drain plug again...:willy_nilly:

- Mike
 
I'm resurrecting this thread rather than starting a new one.

The data plate near the oil window on the apron of my mid-1970's HLV-H (SN just under 5000) specifies "Mobilfluid 350". Which is no longer available from Mobil.

Mobilfluid 350 specs:
Specfic Gravity 0.887
Pour Pount -39ºF
Flash Point 370ºF
Viscosity 39.9 cSt @40ºC
Viscosity Index 154

The closest thing to Mobilfluid 350 is Mobilfluid LT which has a viscosity of 34 cSt @40ºC. I believe it is only available in 5 gal quantity unless you buy a ($$$) liter of Porsche Differential Clutch Fluid (which is Mobilfluid LT).

I've seen a different plate on a most likely UK-made HLV-H pictured on Tony Griffiths site ( lathes.co.uk ) that reads:

Use automatic transmission fluid type A or equal
MOBIL ATF 350

See attached picture.

I did not realize there was any equivalent for ATF type A these days (thanks to those who posted).

Any updates to this? Anyone know of a source for Mobilfluid LT in smaller quantities?

And lastly - Is there a way to keep the apron from leaking out all the oil? Every time I fill mine it ends up seeping out. Needless to say I'm not inclined to use a costly oil if it is just going to end up as waste in the chip tray.
 

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When I had an HLV-H i used John Deere Hy-Gard.
Learned about it on a thread somewhere here...

Thanks for the info. There is a low viscosity version of H-Gard that is 33 cSt making it a better match for Mobilfluid 350 (perhaps that's what you meant).

Here is Mobil's description of the Mobilfluid products:

Mobilfluid 424 and Mobilfluid LT are high-performance, multipurpose tractor transmission and hydraulic fluids. They use advanced technology for optimum performance in farm, contractor, and industrial tractors.

Mobilfluid LT is designed for use in equipment needing cold weather start up and operation qualities. Mobilfluid 424 and Mobilfluid LT are not to be used in passenger car automatic transmissions.
 
I drained and filled mine with the Royal Purple Max ATF, it been 4 months and seems ok. Any feedback or anyone else try the product in their HLV-H?
 








 
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