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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by toolsteel View Post
    Think support.....
    Used Powermill for a while.....it made difficult task' easy....made what should have been easy difficult. (just my opinion)
    Here their support was non existent. If you had a problem well....YOU had a problem.
    Not sure where you are in WI but we've got a local reseller that supports our Autodesk products. They are on the phone in minutes if we need something, but we do pay for that support annually. They have several apps guys that will help us as well, and classes.

    Hypermill was almost $35k with a $5k post processor that we told them we did not want (we use CAMplete) and Powermill was around $9k. Hypermill starts you with something like 12 toolpath options and then you get to choose six. Then you need to pay if you want to activate more.

    One thing that is hanging us up on purchasing Powermill is the $4k charge for a network distributed license! Most other softwares we looked at were more like a $2k price increase.

    ETA: we just picked up Esprit for Mill/Turn and Swiss but their 5-axis looked like an afterthought. Powermill really impressed us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    This has me stumped (sorry to derail your thread some OP). Maybe I am just used to something different. I thought the sim was not very good (visually) and missing a few easy buttons IMO. Sure, auto stock 'tracking' (or whatever you call it) could be nice, but hated how I had to regen ops if I moved them around (maybe not actually related to the sim function). Want to move that spot op below the next (spot, same tool) one, REGEN all!

    Is there a way to stop the sim on tool change, or op change (found the crash stop after some help form Siemens, why is that buried anyhow??)? If there is, someone needs to make a demo of it, and better yet, get it out there for public knowledge!!
    We shouldn't hijack this thread. I'll PM you so can you have some info on hand such as what version are you using and which machine sim? Siemens has done a lot of work on simulation so we can chat about your questions.

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    Standard 5 axis package from hypermill with machine sim and post or our hermles 46k, single seat network license.

    First 8-12 months you get access to something like 12-14 different 5 axis strategies-- after this trial period you pick the 6-7 you use most and those are what you have moving forward. You also get to try their CAD package i believe.

    You can pay to to keep more strategies, you can pay to keep CAD, you can pay to add blisk/impeller specific strategies, you can pay for probing.

    Support is I'd say 8/10. Rarely do we not hear back in the same day at least with something to keep us going until they can set up a web session.

    Maint is 8% or your package price/yr.


    I expect at IMTS 2020 they will be debuting what i call "closing the loop." Hypermill will talk directly to Heidenhain controls, pull in all your tool info, datums, etc. Will be the next big step for CAM i think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tts197 View Post
    Standard 5 axis package from hypermill with machine sim and post or our hermles 46k, single seat network license.

    First 8-12 months you get access to something like 12-14 different 5 axis strategies-- after this trial period you pick the 6-7 you use most and those are what you have moving forward. You also get to try their CAD package i believe.

    You can pay to to keep more strategies, you can pay to keep CAD, you can pay to add blisk/impeller specific strategies, you can pay for probing.

    Support is I'd say 8/10. Rarely do we not hear back in the same day at least with something to keep us going until they can set up a web session.

    Maint is 8% or your package price/yr.


    I expect at IMTS 2020 they will be debuting what i call "closing the loop." Hypermill will talk directly to Heidenhain controls, pull in all your tool info, datums, etc. Will be the next big step for CAM i think.
    interesting!
    we got a meeting/demo with them tomorrow, but the sales guy briefly told me their 3+2 setup+blisk package would be around 28k as a solidworks addon, standalone is 4k extra, other 5 axis finishing strategies are extra etc. i'll know more tomorrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    we currently use fusion, and its great for simple 3d stuff and i'm relatively happy with it for that. but the fact of the matter is, it blows donkey dick at 5 axis, so we mostly need a good system for complex 5 axis stuff like compressor wheels etc.
    i've played with the NX, catia, mastercam, solidcam, fusion, hypermill and powermill interfaces, out of all those fusion and solidcam are the easiest to use and navigate, i love them for that, but they just lack in control. all others SUCK as far as user friendliness/intuitiveness IMO. such a shame that we have to compromise




    Hi empwoer ---> Just mooching off your good thread for a minute...


    Can you elaborate a bit about the 'Lack of control" integral to SOLIDCAM vs what you want to do ?

    I kinda get the gist of the R&D and custom tweaking of subtle surfaces that you need in your impeller work.

    SolidCAM seems to have added newer features on the 5 axis front ? Are those still "Behind the curve" (so to speak) for what you need ? VS. something like HYPERMILL ?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________


    SolidCAM CAM Software: Simultaneous 5x Milling

    SolidCAM CAM Software: What's New in SolidCAM 2019

    On page 36 of their "What's new for 2019" "All types of Circle End Mills are now supported in SolidCAM 2019, including Oval Form, Lens Form, Barrel Taper & Barrel Shape Mills

    •Circle End Mills can be used in Sim. 5X (Generic) & HSS Operations

    ^^^ Not total "pants" for sim-5 axis (perhaps ?) interested in what SOLIDCAM left on the table that HYPERMILL has in spadefulls ?

    Any vague opinion or take on that would be handy.

    Ta.

    ___________________________

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post



    Hi empwoer ---> Just mooching off your good thread for a minute...


    Can you elaborate a bit about the 'Lack of control" integral to SOLIDCAM vs what you want to do ?

    I kinda get the gist of the R&D and custom tweaking of subtle surfaces that you need in your impeller work.

    SolidCAM seems to have added newer features on the 5 axis front ? Are those still "Behind the curve" (so to speak) for what you need ? VS. something like HYPERMILL ?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________


    SolidCAM CAM Software: Simultaneous 5x Milling

    SolidCAM CAM Software: What's New in SolidCAM 2019

    On page 36 of their "What's new for 2019" "All types of Circle End Mills are now supported in SolidCAM 2019, including Oval Form, Lens Form, Barrel Taper & Barrel Shape Mills

    •Circle End Mills can be used in Sim. 5X (Generic) & HSS Operations

    ^^^ Not total "pants" for sim-5 axis (perhaps ?) interested in what SOLIDCAM left on the table that HYPERMILL has in spadefulls ?

    Any vague opinion or take on that would be handy.

    Ta.

    ___________________________
    to be entirely fair, ive only used solidcam 2016 and not familiar with the new features they have out right now. but IIRC they dont have dedicated application toolpaths like for blisks, ports etc so that would be #1 right there.

    fusion 5 axis is VERY limited, they have only 3 toolpaths for simultaneous 5 axis and they're quite primitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    to be entirely fair, ive only used solidcam 2016 and not familiar with the new features they have out right now. but IIRC they dont have dedicated application toolpaths like for blisks, ports etc so that would be #1 right there.

    fusion 5 axis is VERY limited, they have only 3 toolpaths for simultaneous 5 axis and they're quite primitive.
    So when "they say" --->

    Five New Sim. 5x Operations

    "The latest version includes major enhancements to the Sim. 5x module. Five new operations have been added to the Sim. 5x module: Multiblade machining, Port machining and Contour 5-axis machining, Multiaxis roughing, and Rotary machining making it the most powerful system in the industry." …


    Multiblade machining and Port machining ? (I'm not saying "Most powerful in the industry" ---> How do you define 'Powerful" more like what power is given to the user ?

    Maybe for $20K to $25K less you can get a work flow/ interface that you like... [Might be worth a trial / go ?].

    There's a lot of other reasons in terms of workflow to not go with the SOLIDCAM paradigm also.

    I think the CAD front end for HYPERMILL looks very useful for subtle tweaks to surfaces that are Engineering to Machining direct closed loop idea without pesky CAM systems getting in the way of subtle and precise work (if that's your bag).

    Nobody has to give "Rational" reasons to buy something

    I have to admit I am fully cognizant of the importance of good software but when a single seat / suite for a smaller outfit starts to creep towards $50K + 8% annual maintenance for one chair / one seat … That gets a little uncomfortable for me.


    Something $25K to $35... + time saved on easier interface / QUICK... / more no brainer / less hassle is a bit more "Chill"...


    The edge contour features to select from Solidworks (with SolidCAM) for chamfered edges and reduction of manual deburring seem nice (sim 5 axis).


    The whole shooting match for HYPERMILL does look very good indeed if one can go "All-in" on all that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    So when "they say" --->

    Five New Sim. 5x Operations

    "The latest version includes major enhancements to the Sim. 5x module. Five new operations have been added to the Sim. 5x module: Multiblade machining, Port machining and Contour 5-axis machining, Multiaxis roughing, and Rotary machining making it the most powerful system in the industry." …


    Multiblade machining and Port machining ? (I'm not saying "Most powerful in the industry" ---> How do you define 'Powerful" more like what power is given to the user ?

    Maybe for $20K to $25K less you can get a work flow/ interface that you like... [Might be worth a trial / go ?].

    There's a lot of other reasons in terms of workflow to not go with the SOLIDCAM paradigm also.

    I think the CAD front end for HYPERMILL looks very useful for subtle tweaks to surfaces that are Engineering to Machining direct closed loop idea without pesky CAM systems getting in the way of subtle and precise work (if that's your bag).

    Nobody has to give "Rational" reasons to buy something

    I have to admit I am fully cognizant of the importance of good software but when a single seat / suite for a smaller outfit starts to creep towards $50K + 8% annual maintenance for one suite … That gets a little uncomfortable for me.


    Something $25K to $35... + time saved on easier interface / QUICK... / more no brainer / less hassle is a bit more "Chill"...


    The edge contour features to select from Solidworks (with SolidCAM) for chamfered edges and reduction of manual deburring seem nice (sim 5 axis).


    The whole shooting match for HYPERMILL does look very good indeed if one can go "All-in" on all that.
    hey brotha you dont gotta tell me about that! 50k for cam is pretty absurd if you ask me...

    i didnt see the part that solidcam added blade and port machining toolpaths, thats pretty neat!

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    hey brotha you dont gotta tell me about that! 50k for cam is pretty absurd if you ask me...

    i didnt see the part that solidcam added blade and port machining toolpaths, thats pretty neat!
    If you are going balls deep on a lot of this would be good to get your opinion / feedback / perspective if you get to test all these things out / compare notes etc.



    What TTS197 was saying about further integration with HYPERMILL and HEIDENHAIN control for tools (backwards) from the control seems interesting... Every process has a $ value to it/ value proposition / ROI etc. . [Just when how and WHY or why not ?].

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    Sometimes you just need to jump in with both feet and don't look back. One thing to consider. Hypermills toolpaths are glitch free. How many $5K forgings can you afford to scrap when using something like MasterGouge? I can take a new program and just hit cycle start and not worry. I do run all the 5x stuff through Vericut just to be safe, but there's never a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    Sometimes you just need to jump in with both feet and don't look back. One thing to consider. Hypermills toolpaths are glitch free. How many $5K forgings can you afford to scrap when using something like MasterGouge? I can take a new program and just hit cycle start and not worry. I do run all the 5x stuff through Vericut just to be safe, but there's never a problem.
    thats good to know! [email protected]

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    If you are going balls deep on a lot of this would be good to get your opinion / feedback / perspective if you get to test all these things out / compare notes etc.



    What TTS197 was saying about further integration with HYPERMILL and HEIDENHAIN control for tools (backwards) from the control seems interesting... Every process has a $ value to it/ value proposition / ROI etc. . [Just when how and WHY or why not ?].
    i'll gladly share my experience when we hit the road on this! gonna be exciting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tts197 View Post

    Maint is 8% or your package price/yr.
    8% or 18%? If it's 8, it's the lowest maintenance rate in the industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    8% or 18%? If it's 8, it's the lowest maintenance rate in the industry.
    Ok :-)

    let's say $50,000.00 of blinged out Software tools @8 % ----> $4000.00 annual maintenance fee for one seat.

    Presumably there are penalties to play "Catch-up" if things lapse.

    $50,000.00 @18 % ----> $9000.00 / seat annually.


    __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________


    The systems and software we are building / have been building were in direct response to Leica Geosystems having a photogrammetric product (software alone) that costs $120K ++ and the annual maintenance was $18K / seat … (kinda in line with what @jeffj is saying). Our goal was to release something more specialized but superior to the task for less than the maintenance license that our "Target" users would be paying.

    __________________________________________________


    For some corporations with HYPERMILL it makes absolute sense … But for smaller engineering firms that have much more diverse tasks (in totality) I'm not so sure ?

    The introduction of fee based subscriptions I think has been a "Gods-send" to smaller companies, as typically a smaller engineering firm will carry out work that is in phases (wearing different hats). So FEA (Finite element analysis / initial design engineering verification will be carried out in set of discrete phases to not be used again maybe for months (and in some cases years). Same with CAD six months on and six months off in some cases.


    Siemens PLM did a good thing with SolidEdge and related suite of more advanced products so you could upgrade and downgrade the version of the software you are using as when you need it as part of the subscription. That's super helpful to smaller companies that don't have dedicated FEA staff working 24/7 day in day out for years.


    I'm wonder if something similar would makes sense for the CAM end of things... I'm guessing probably not as how would companies like HYPERMILL make their much needed $ [to stay current and support their customers ? .].

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    So with HYPERMILL you have 3+2 as a separate license… then blisk 4+1 operation ?

    For our stuff 3+2 would work (with full 3d contouring "On" position.) … Seems for certain parts a lot of chamfering (edge breaking / de burring) operations along complex edges in a plane can be done with 4 +1... But wonder about chamfering on edges (inset) on compound curved surfaces ? I am assuming that has to be sim 5 ?

    Wish some of these companies and MTB's would offer sim 5 for chamfering as a limited option... But not have to "Stump up" for full sim 5 axis + 7 strategies (out of a larger set) ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    So with HYPERMILL you have 3+2 as a separate license… then blisk 4+1 operation ?

    For our stuff 3+2 would work (with full 3d contouring "On" position.) … Seems for certain parts a lot of chamfering (edge breaking / de burring) operations along complex edges in a plane can be done with 4 +1... But wonder about chamfering on edges (inset) on compound curved surfaces ? I am assuming that has to be sim 5 ?

    Wish some of these companies and MTB's would offer sim 5 for chamfering as a limited option... But not have to "Stump up" for full sim 5 axis + 7 strategies (out of a larger set) ?
    more flexibility with CAM softwares would be a godsend! doubt we'll see it though

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    just got the demo from hypermill today, and we were impressed. 24k for hypermill for solidworks, expert 5 axis multi blade, 2d/3d/hsc cam functions, internal simulation, hyperview simulation, tool database, feature and macro automation, multi axis indexing, maxx roughing, impeller blad solutions, roughing, hub finishing, flank milling, edge milling, fillet milling.
    3600 maintenance
    5k for post processor, 2k for sim and 5k for 4 days training.
    standalone with hypercad is 4k extra

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    just got the demo from hypermill today, and we were impressed. 24k for hypermill for solidworks, expert 5 axis multi blade, 2d/3d/hsc cam functions, internal simulation, hyperview simulation, tool database, feature and macro automation, multi axis indexing, maxx roughing, impeller blad solutions, roughing, hub finishing, flank milling, edge milling, fillet milling.
    3600 maintenance
    5k for post processor, 2k for sim and 5k for 4 days training.
    standalone with hypercad is 4k extra

    Heyyyy Not bad !


    I was looking at the integrated with/into Solidworks solution today (on line).

    I was wondering if that would be more intuitive / SOLIDCAM-like for yah.

    Is the SolidWorks integrated* HYPERMILL solution cheaper than the stand alone CAM package for HYPERMILL ? The same or more expensive ?

    Sorry I read what you wrote. better now... OK so $4K more with the CAD front end... So is the CAD a thing they are trialing , throw in for free but the stand alone HYPERMILL is $4K more anyway ?


    __________________________________________________ ____________________________________


    So for ---> " roughing, hub finishing, flank milling, edge milling, fillet milling."


    That's special moves full sim 5axis for roughing, flank milling; and for flank milling does that mean the flanks of the special shaped tools like (using the newer funky tools / lens/ barrel / taper pencil end mills ) ?


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________


    * I did a long time ago get into a bit of trouble with SolidCam integrated into solidworks , mainly a stability issues from Microsoft thru to OpenGL through to SolidWorks through to Solid CAM...

    So there is a sort of advantage to breaking that chain of dependencies with a stand alone CAM package. (in some cases, but nice in others where design changes "Ripple" through forward without having to tear everything down/ rebuild on the CAM end. Not sure what CAM changes you can make that "ripple" through backwards to the CAD end of things ? ).

    @empwoer might be worth your while to test out the stability of the integrated SoliWerkz/Hypermill solution. See what it takes to crash / freeze it (lol).

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    dont-cross-streams-1-.jpg

    (Don't cross the streams ). too late...

    With the 5 axis machine thread "tête-à-tête"


    I was wondering about …



    ^^^ This...

    Two fold reason … One that machine is bridge style and scales all axes + option of HEIDENHAIN control everything thrown in including laser tool setter MB 650 U (Fanuc version $279K). [I'm wondering if it's a custom specc'd FEELER machine exclusive to Methods ?].


    And then secondly the "Peep" from the engineering channel (in the video) and chap from Methods try to make out that 3+2 is faster for most applications than sim 5 . (They actually mis-speak "4+2" (that sounds nice)).


    BUT I thought with the newer tool shapes and using the sides of the tool that sim 5 axis NOW is more efficient (for a lot of complex parts or even 2 1/2D-ish aerospace parts with sloping walls (akin to draught angles) ?

    According to the Makino end of the pool now that machines are accurate enough in cut on all axes that more efficient strategies cane be employed that can dramatically cut down on cycle time ?

    @empwoer
    did the 'Peeps" at HYPERMILL seem to think that sim-5axis on a competent machine can be faster than 3+2 positional strategies (using the sides of tools that are tapered or lensed ? + tool life , fewer tool changes and more efficient metal removal strategies ? (For 3d contoured complex parts ?) … I know in your case you have to dooooo sim-5 axis no matter what 'cuz impeller, and you may have a linear machine on your floor before too long.


    Just wondering how real that all is in terms of tool flank strategies and true sim- 5 axis moves vs. more conventional positional work ? (There's one or two folks on pm forum that are usually super busy that probably know the answer to that.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Heyyyy Not bad !


    I was looking at the integrated with/into Solidworks solution today (on line).

    I was wondering if that would be more intuitive / SOLIDCAM-like for yah.

    Is the SolidWorks integrated* HYPERMILL solution cheaper than the stand alone CAM package for HYPERMILL ? The same or more expensive ?


    __________________________________________________ ____________________________________


    So for ---> " roughing, hub finishing, flank milling, edge milling, fillet milling."


    That's special moves full sim 5axis for roughing, flank milling; and for flank milling does that mean the flanks of the special shaped tools like (using the newer funky tools / lens/ barrel / taper pencil end mills ) ?


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________


    * I did a long time ago get into a bit or trouble with SolidCam integrated into solidworks , mainly a stability issues from Microsoft thru to OpenGL through to SolidWorks through to Solid CAM...

    So there is a sort of advantage to breaking that chain of dependencies with a stand alone CAM package. (in some cases but nice in others where design changes "Ripple" through forward without having to tear everything down on the CAM end.

    @empwoer might be worth your while to test out the stability of the integrated SW/Hypermill solution. See what it takes to crash / freeze it (lol).
    so the integrated into solidworks package is 4k cheaper than a standalone (basically comes with hypercadS)

    right, thats a dedicated package for CW's using all kinds of barrel/taper tools.
    their solidworks integration seems to be pretty good. we might start off with that just so i dont have to switch to a new cad system right away. if we have any issues down the road we can switch over.

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