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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Attachment 257087

    (Don't cross the streams ). too late...

    With the 5 axis machine thread "tête-à-tête"


    I was wondering about …



    ^^^ This...

    Two fold reason … One that machine is bridge style and scales all axes + option of HEIDENHAIN control everything thrown including laser tool setter MB 650 U (Fanuc version $279K). [I'm wondering if it's a custom specc's FEELER machine exclusive to Methods ?].


    And then secondly the "Peep" from the engineering channel (in the video) and chap from Methods try to make out that 3+2 is faster for most applications than sim 5 . (They actually mis-speak "4+2" (that sounds nice)).


    BUT I thought with the newer tool shapes and using the sides of the tool that sim 5 axis NOW is more efficient (for a lot of complex parts or even 2 1/2D-ish aerospace parts with sloping walls (akin to draught angles) ?

    According to the Makino end of the pool now that machines are accurate enough in cut on all axes that more efficient strategies cane be employed that can dramatically cut down on cycle time ?

    @empwoer
    did the 'Peeps" at HYPERMILL seem to think that sim-5axis on a competent machine can be faster than 3+2 positional strategies (using the sides of tools that are tapered or lensed ? + tool life , fewer tool changes and more efficient metal removal strategies ? (For 3d contoured complex parts ?) … I know in your case you have to dooooo sim-5 axis no matter what 'cuz impeller, and you may have a linear machine on your floor before too long.


    Just wondering how real that all is in terms of tool flank strategies and true sim- 5 axis moves vs. more conventional positional work ? (There's one or two folks on pm forum that are usually super busy that probably know the answer to that.).
    yes, their experience is that it can be faster, but we didnt really touch on that too much, mostly concentrated on our wheels.

    it makes sense though since you can do a lot bigger stepovers and still have very small cusps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    yes, their experience is that it can be faster, but we didnt really touch on that too much, mostly concentrated on our wheels.

    it makes sense though since you can do a lot bigger stepovers and still have very small cusps.
    That all sound very exciting and within reach. (NICE !)…

    Good luck on you trial... Hope you have clear time to dig deep on all that and go through their tutorials and get a good feel for what they really have going on.




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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    so the integrated into solidworks package is 4k cheaper than a standalone (basically comes with hypercadS)

    right, thats a dedicated package for CW's using all kinds of barrel/taper tools.
    their solidworks integration seems to be pretty good. we might start off with that just so i dont have to switch to a new cad system right away. if we have any issues down the road we can switch over.
    That seems like a perfect belt and braces approach.

    I'd definitely recommend a CLEAN license for Solidworks (just for your CAM) i.e. if you have a blinged out version of Solidworks with all the bells and whistles and advanced FEA for assemblies or some sort of multi physics / engineering simulation , then you can't asynchronously upgrade different sub-components of your SolidWorks license (in the future). So a minimal separate Solid works license can be less grief (in some cases) , cheaper yet more current for you integrated CAM package.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    That all sound very exciting and within reach. (NICE !)…

    Good luck on you trial... Hope you have clear time to dig deep on all that and go through their tutorials and get a good feel for what they really have going on.



    we'll have 4 days of one on one training with their AE, think that'll be enough to get a decent hang of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    we'll have 4 days of one on one training with their AE, think that'll be enough to get a decent hang of it.
    That sounds like a slam dunk / done deal almost …

    I'm totally geeking out (very excited) as the one thing that's been hanging over my head is that the kinds of geometries that we really want to use have hideous cycle times via conventional strategies … To the point that it's not viable within the scheme of a more complex product. In other words we'd be subsidizing our end users 'cuz we are too stubborn and stupid about forward looking aesthetics and function, (not a good way to run a business/ good way to sink your ship (German style uncompromising design to cut your own throat with ;-)). With a good eye to cleaned up "Generative" "de-generate-ive" design more organic yet lighter stronger geometries (for certain structures) are possible now or are almost mandatory/ increasingly in demand. So the possibility to design around specific tool profiles and faaaaar more efficient strategies that go hand in hand with that is BEYOND exciting... The fact that those kinds of geometries can be practical to produce and pass on those savings (as such) to our customers / users and be competitive. Long time ago folks more wise and able than I am had been trying to push me towards complex high precision castings and I'm like Naaah Ahhhhh ! (Numbers don't work for that (right now) and I really like the idea of a CNC'd 1st generation article being put into the customer's hands.)…


    Very exciting to potentially square the circle on that (big time !).


    Will be interesting to learn what will transpire for Hypermill + HEIDENHAIN as (TTS197 said earlier in the thread).


    __________________________________________________ _________________


    The HYPERMILL CAD front end has some really interesting global geometric distortions that can added / used to counter correct how materials naturally move around after being cut / stress relief within a material... Certain things that are more difficult to do in SolidWorks. HYPERMILL shows that for basic deflection forces from cutting action and tool position on thin walled parts but could have a lot of useful "Corrective" purposes.

    Deformation | hyperCAD-S CAD software

    ^^^ I had a better link for this … Ohh well but you get the gist.
    Last edited by cameraman; 05-23-2019 at 11:31 AM.

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    I'm chuckling because we though 4 days would be great too---your going to be sending a few emails to their apps guy for the next few weeks. I promise.

    Not a bad thing, just the reality of having software this powerful.

    You can get it to do things that others wont, but your going to have to be able to give it the info it needs to achieve that.

    Hitting cycle start of first runs and watching the cutter get into the material--then walking away is a feeling that takes some getting used to.8 months now--no crashes no gouges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tts197 View Post
    I'm chuckling because we though 4 days would be great too---your going to be sending a few emails to their apps guy for the next few weeks. I promise.

    Not a bad thing, just the reality of having software this powerful.

    You can get it to do things that others wont, but your going to have to be able to give it the info it needs to achieve that.

    Hitting cycle start of first runs and watching the cutter get into the material--then walking away is a feeling that takes some getting used to.8 months now--no crashes no gouges.
    Does HYPEMILL let you do a month's trial in advance (pre-purchase trial) so you can go through all the tutorials etc. in advance... That way at least one can be familiar with the workflow and little gotcha's on the software side. Admittedly not having postable code is less than half the battle but at least one could maybe ask more intelligent / relevant questions when the 4 day training guys turn up maybe ? I.e. things that are more application specific, but maybe that's not entirely HYPERMILL's remit/scope.

    For different types of work MAZAK can be quite good for about $15K to work your process through for a particular part or part family on a new machine. [If needed.]. Not useful for high mix but good if you only need to make one family of related parts day in day out for years (kind of thing).


    __________________________________________________ ____________________________________


    @tts197
    What is the documentation + tutorials like on Hypermill ? Good, Bad , too abstract , just need to dive in kind of thing ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tts197 View Post
    I'm chuckling because we though 4 days would be great too---your going to be sending a few emails to their apps guy for the next few weeks. I promise.

    Not a bad thing, just the reality of having software this powerful.

    You can get it to do things that others wont, but your going to have to be able to give it the info it needs to achieve that.

    Hitting cycle start of first runs and watching the cutter get into the material--then walking away is a feeling that takes some getting used to.8 months now--no crashes no gouges.
    oh for sure, we're not expecting to become experts in 4 days, hopefully at least familiar with the interface and what does what. well aware it'll take a long time to become proficient in it.

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    to expand a bit on the topic, any thoughts on Mill/turn with hypermill or the before mentioned cam packages? we just added a lathe with sub spindle, live tooling, and y axis. trying to see if hypermill is a good option for that or not. the hypermill rep said they're ok with lathe stuff, but def not as good as 5 axis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    ...NX has some kickass tools that I barely got to play with so I am sure they get even better with experience! BUT.. it is not user friendly IMO. Lots and lots of things need to be set up, and to me they aren't clear where to go and even how to do it, even after using for a while and taking a class. I would hate to have to use it everyday for what I am programming now. Defining speeds and feeds for every op (with same tools), navigating to a seperate window (why the FUCK did they do that anyways?!?) EVERY SINGLE TIME to enable/turn on 'start events' (coolant) etc.* For what I do the MCX workflow is fantastic and NX would have me pulling my hair out. ...
    Sorry to hear you had that experience...There is a lot to set up but not setting it up is precisely what caused your experience. My experience has been simple to medium complexity parts take more time to create prints and documentation than to create a program and I love how it handles large, complex parts too. After setting up cut data, users have the option for speeds and feeds to automatically set in every option or users can push one button if they are the controlling type lol. Coolant is per tool, not per operation and there is a ton of post functionality to tap into. If you want to use different types of coolant per tool you certainly can not to mention creating a plethora of custom user events for manufacturing, modeling and drafting. There is automatic operation creation if users choose to create custom geometry templates. There is also a ton of automation to tap into using graphically created journals which are VB based in the background. If you know some C you can extend them even more. You hit the nail on the head about setting it up.

    Speaking of all that it is not uncommon for small-ish companies and individuals to fall through the cracks when learning NX. Siemens has a great user forum and knowledge base but there doesn't seem to be a central resource for new NX sites to reference for customization. So unless new NX sites connect to well established companies using it, they seem to either glance off its potential or worse. Siemens really needs to publish some white papers inform their users what is possible with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwan View Post
    Sorry to hear you had that experience...There is a lot to set up but not setting it up is precisely what caused your experience. My experience has been simple to medium complexity parts take more time to create prints and documentation than to create a program and I love how it handles large, complex parts too. After setting up cut data, users have the option for speeds and feeds to automatically set in every option or users can push one button if they are the controlling type lol. Coolant is per tool, not per operation and there is a ton of post functionality to tap into. If you want to use different types of coolant per tool you certainly can not to mention creating a plethora of custom user events for manufacturing, modeling and drafting. There is automatic operation creation if users choose to create custom geometry templates. There is also a ton of automation to tap into using graphically created journals which are VB based in the background. If you know some C you can extend them even more. You hit the nail on the head about setting it up.

    Speaking of all that it is not uncommon for small-ish companies and individuals to fall through the cracks when learning NX. Siemens has a great user forum and knowledge base but there doesn't seem to be a central resource for new NX sites to reference for customization. So unless new NX sites connect to well established companies using it, they seem to either glance off its potential or worse. Siemens really needs to publish some white papers inform their users what is possible with it.
    I'm a bit out of touch with NX these days, really like some of their modelling tools. Solid Edge seems to have picked up some momentum and borrowed a few nice tools from NX.


    NX CAM (Ten years ago) seemed a bit overwhelming (disjointed / really low level detail + deep knowledge ), more suitable for large dedicated hyper-focused engineering teams working on billion dollar work flows (like Space X or something)… Not so much for a business that is a one to ten man band.

    I guess it's better / easier these days for one programmer to drive ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    to expand a bit on the topic, any thoughts on Mill/turn with hypermill or the before mentioned cam packages? we just added a lathe with sub spindle, live tooling, and y axis. trying to see if hypermill is a good option for that or not. the hypermill rep said they're ok with lathe stuff, but def not as good as 5 axis
    SolidCam is pretty good all rounder for that including Millturn.

    I can't keep up with what GibbsCam is doing these days but they seemed to be pretty on the ball for 4th axis / Y (milling ) for turning centers.

    Thought of you the other day, had an offer for an "OKUMA MULTUS B300W Big Bore CNC TURNING CENTER with Universal Head, Live Tooling, Y-Axis and Sub-Spindle Model Multus B300W, New 2008,..." Really blinged out full options, including Super Nurbs. All for about $250 K (uses the older OSP P200L CNC ---> wasn't so sure about that but could be fine.). "Guaging " on Y axis 1000 psi (TSC) etc/ etc.

    Not to pry or cross "Boundaries" etc. But wondered if you were buying the turning center for your impeller work ?

    Maybe linear machine (Matsuura) $200K + (whatever Selway has to do ) + turning center for your impeller blanks ? (+$x ?).

    Was wondering if something like an Okuma Multus (big bore) would be more efficient ?


    @empwoer
    Interested in your perspective on workflow of two machines (dedicated 5 axis ) + turning center VS. Mill turn 5 axis integrated solution like a B axis mill turn machine ? Would that be faster or slower for what you do ? Littlerob1 probably knows the answer to that too.


    ESPRIT is a very stable platform for mill turn but don't know if it's over kill for live Y / 4th axis on a turning center ?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________

    Esprit; not cheap, Peter Stanton / EDGEPPrecision (accidentally) trashed his lap top (poor bloke) and his license for ESPRIT is getting long in the tooth (and lives on said trashed laptop ~ dongle enabled ) and he was kinda muttering about Fusion 360, and the "Peeps" on YouTube were saying he should reach out to Autodesk as his work is mainly positional 5 axis mill turn. Maybe something will come of that ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    SolidCam is pretty good all rounder for that including Millturn.

    I can't keep up with what GibbsCam is doing these days but they seemed to be pretty on the ball for 4th axis / Y (milling ) for turning centers.

    Thought of you the other day, had an offer for an "OKUMA MULTUS B300W Big Bore CNC TURNING CENTER with Universal Head, Live Tooling, Y-Axis and Sub-Spindle Model Multus B300W, New 2008,..." Really blinged out full options, including Super Nurbs. All for about $250 K (uses the older OSP P200L CNC ---> wasn't so sure about that but could be fine.). "Guaging " on Y axis 1000 psi (TSC) etc/ etc.

    Not to pry or cross "Boundaries" etc. But wondered if you were buying the turning center for your impeller work ?

    Maybe linear machine (Matsuura) $200K + (whatever Selway has to do ) + turning center for your impeller blanks ? (+$x ?).

    Was wondering if something like an Okuma Multus (big bore) would be more efficient ?


    @empwoer
    Interested in your perspective on workflow of two machines (dedicated 5 axis ) + turning center VS. Mill turn 5 axis integrated solution like a B axis mill turn machine ? Would that be faster or slower for what you do ? Littlerob1 probably knows the answer to that too.


    ESPRIT is a very stable platform for mill turn but don't know if it's over kill for live Y / 4th axis on a turning center ?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________

    Esprit; not cheap, Peter Stanton / EDGEPPrecision (accidentally) trashed his lap top (poor bloke) and his license for ESPRIT is getting long in the tooth (and lives on said trashed laptop ~ dongle enabled ) and he was kinda muttering about Fusion 360, and the "Peeps" on YouTube were saying he should reach out to Autodesk as his work is mainly positional 5 axis mill turn. Maybe something will come of that ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    sorry dont know how i missed this post.

    you're on the right track, we ended up getting a Yama-seiki y axis sub spindle lathe for turning the blanks (and some secret additional work) for the compressor wheels and the LX160 for doing the final milling. the mill shows up tomorrow, lathe should be here the day after or so. we thought long and hard about going with through bore chuck but we'd need to get something at least 4" which would get pretty expensive. the money we saved can easily pay for a robot arm to load cut stock into this thing.

    we also thought about building wheels in a multi axis lathe but from everything i've read/heard, if your part requires milling more than 25% of the total cycle time then its more efficient to split between two dedicated machines.


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