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    Quote Originally Posted by goooose View Post
    Cherry picked this one, it'll never happen and Autodesk is pulling the wool over it's investors eyes with this. Maybe that's the play with Fusion, pumping the stock price by showing big sub gains.

    Lets play out your above scenario and see what really happens. Of this fictional 400k users, how many are teachers, students, hobby 3D printers, makers, random people who downloaded because it was free? I would put that number at about 80-90%. So that only leaves you with 40k customers who might be wiling to pay $2500...but many of them would already be grandfathered in and only be required to pay the maintenance. This 1bn is now 500k. Autodesk investors won't pick up the phone for a conference call about that kind of money, I'm sure they'd rather be on time for their tee off.

    Fusion taking over in general won't happen as long as it is cloud based and subscription based. Large companies either don't want there files stored on someone else's servers or simply are not allowed to (ITAR for example). Any company with some business sense can see the risk of being locked into a CAD/CAM sub, all your work is gone as soon as the sub expires and thus, so is your business. Very dangerous.

    Simply, the Adobe model does not work. There are millions of photographers and wanna be youtubers to support the Adobe suite, there is not that many users in the CAD/CAM space and if you scrape deep enough to find that many, they sure as shit won't pay.
    And, there is your reality! So, what did they actually gain by buying up FeatureCAM?! Nothing! And, THIS is why I am soo

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Honestly Autodesk get good value out of their users being a very large group of active Beta testers*.
    I haven't used Fusion myself, but from reading all the posts on here about it, this sums up my opinion of it.


    Seems to me that's the point of it being so cheap/free? So they can get more users (hooked) and more feedback to debug? They're essentially writing software while the community bug tests it in real time, are they not?

    What do you guys think happens when it is in it's final form / not as buggy? Same price? Yeah right.

    Same features as their other CAM softwares, but cheaper price? What's the point of the other packages then?

    Something's gotta give. My bet is still they're gonna jack up the price and screw these guys. They'll have 100's or 1000's of part files they can only access if they keep up on their maintenance subscription.

    Then if you ever switch to a new CAM product you've gotta re-program any of those old jobs that repeat or rev-change or post code for a new machine/controller... no thanks.


    Facebook is "free" since they're selling your personal data to advertisers. Perhaps Fusion was free/is cheap is because they're "paying the beta testers". What happens when they don't need any more testing/not as much?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    Facebook is "free" since they're selling your personal data to advertisers. Perhaps Fusion was free/is cheap is because they're "paying the beta testers". What happens when they don't need any more testing/not as much?
    Let's not forget Autodesk has all the data from you and your parts as well. They are sure as shit going to milk every last cent from it. If you read the EULA, Autodesk can in fact access your designs and programs.

    DP Technology was able to rewrite Esprit without a massive group of beta testers, it's not that AD needs to do this. No company would build a product based strictly on the suggestions of the end user. Remember the car Homer built, ya, that's what you end up with...and I guess Fusion is kinda heading in that direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goooose View Post
    Let's not forget Autodesk has all the data from you and your parts as well. They are sure as shit going to milk every last cent from it. If you read the EULA, Autodesk can in fact access your designs and programs.

    DP Technology was able to rewrite Esprit without a massive group of beta testers, it's not that AD needs to do this. No company would build a product based strictly on the suggestions of the end user. Remember the car Homer built, ya, that's what you end up with...and I guess Fusion is kinda heading in that direction.
    I was wondering about the EULA agreement whether anyone had read that and whether Autodesk have the right to "Data mine" you cloud account ?

    Is that really true , they can look at your parts (if they want to ?).

    This is the thing that's really disturbing is that really good machinists that use products like Esprit are thinking of ditching Esprit in favor of dealing with the more limited functionality of Fusion 360. It's almost like Fusion 360 makes the middle segment companies "Seem" like scamsters / douchebags... (Which in most cases they are not). There is a difference.


    That's my favorite Simpson's episode of all time. It's so true. Dany DeVito's character "What does this monstrosity cost ????" (aid whispers in his ear ) "Ohhh my God we are ruined !!!" falls on knees crying.


    My father was a professional designer and artist and he always repeated a (famous maxim)


    "A camel is a horse designed by committee" ,


    There's another (German) phrase which I absolutely love,


    eierlegende Wollmilchsau - Wiktionary

    eierlegende Wollmilchsau (literally “egg-laying wool-milk-sow”), from earlier eierlegendes und milchgebendes Wollschwein (literally “egg-laying and milk-giving wool-pig”).


    The essence of an overloaded impossibly over designed product.


    eier-legende-wollmilchsau1-1-.jpg

    __________________________________________________ _________________________________


    I always found SolidCam to be ok for integrated CAD/CAM solution and didn't seem too overloaded other than being stuffed into Solidworks interface. (Good documentation.).

    I still think Fusion 360 is still "Lite". But maybe the 'Cloud thing" is the aspect that is totally over done and unnecessary ?

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    Having your most critical data and parts stored in a "Buzz-word" does not inspire abundant confidence, but cool in empwoer's case they were able to step through and recover fairly recent versions of his files from his account ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I was wondering about the EULA agreement whether anyone had read that and whether Autodesk have the right to "Data mine" you cloud account ?

    Is that really true , they can look at your parts (if they want to ?).

    This is the thing that's really disturbing is that really good machinists that use products like Esprit are thinking of ditching Esprit in favor of dealing with the more limited functionality of Fusion 360. It's almost like Fusion 360 makes the middle segment companies "Seem" like scamsters / douchebags... (Which in most cases they are not). There is a difference.


    That's my favorite Simpson's episode of all time. It's so true. Dany DeVito's character "What does this monstrosity cost ????" (aid whispers in his ear ) "Ohhh my God we are ruined !!!" falls on knees crying.


    My father was a professional designer and artist and he always repeated a (famous maxim)


    "A camel is a horse designed by committee" ,


    There's another (German) phrase which I absolutely love,


    eierlegende Wollmilchsau - Wiktionary

    eierlegende Wollmilchsau (literally “egg-laying wool-milk-sow”), from earlier eierlegendes und milchgebendes Wollschwein (literally “egg-laying and milk-giving wool-pig”).


    The essence of an overloaded impossibly over designed product.


    eier-legende-wollmilchsau1-1-.jpg

    __________________________________________________ _________________________________


    I always found SolidCam to be ok for integrated CAD/CAM solution and didn't seem too overloaded other than being stuffed into Solidworks interface. (Good documentation.).

    I still think Fusion 360 is still "Lite". But maybe the 'Cloud thing" is the aspect that is totally over done and unnecessary ?
    i'm a fan of the solidworks interface. both it and fusion are really nice on the end user.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    There's another (German) phrase which I absolutely love,


    eierlegende Wollmilchsau - Wiktionary

    eierlegende Wollmilchsau (literally “egg-laying wool-milk-sow”), from earlier eierlegendes und milchgebendes Wollschwein (literally “egg-laying and milk-giving wool-pig”).


    The essence of an overloaded impossibly over designed product.


    eier-legende-wollmilchsau1-1-.jpg
    Why not just say "F-35"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by goooose View Post
    So how much of your time and how much production time was wasted.
    These are the little things most don't look at when figuring the true cost of a piece of software.
    I'm with you that it is a frustrating waste of time. I only wish that it wasn't also a problem with more expensive software. I'd like to meet the person who uses CAM, CAD, or really, any software that hasn't also lost productive time to some file getting corrupted and experienced the pain in getting it back.

    Or the license server crashes, and no one can get a license (Solidworks). Or one client eats all the licenses from the server, and refuses to give them back. Then ~8 engineers, and 2 CAM programmers are sitting around for 2 days while waiting for a custom patch from the vendor to release the licenses (promised in 2 hours, but then they needed another 2 hours, then any minute, and then ... until 2 days had passed)(oh, also Solidworks).

    That aspect probably balances out against between Fusion, and other more expensive CAM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamm View Post
    That aspect probably balances out against between Fusion, and other more expensive CAM.
    Not once in the last 20+ years have I had a saved file revert to an old version on its own. This is a Fusion only type problem.

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    In my line of work I am lucky where I do not need to do much solid models(can toolpath of 2d) but when I do I save them as obscure file names and delete them as soon as I can.

    The only "problem" I have had that really is a problem worth complaining about more is that if you have large designs even in 2d...lets say 500 holes , without any toolpathing, you try to move it to a different area by "drag"...it crashes. Bobcad slowed, and Mastercam handled it pretty good. All on the same computer. All exactly the same file. So what does that tell you, to many background BS because of the cloud or I am sure the super nerds here will have a better idea.

    Otherwise, it hasn't glitched on creation or toolpathing yet for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EndlessWaltz View Post
    In my line of work I am lucky where I do not need to do much solid models(can toolpath of 2d) but when I do I save them as obscure file names and delete them as soon as I can.

    The only "problem" I have had that really is a problem worth complaining about more is that if you have large designs even in 2d...lets say 500 holes , without any toolpathing, you try to move it to a different area by "drag"...it crashes. Bobcad slowed, and Mastercam handled it pretty good. All on the same computer. All exactly the same file. So what does that tell you, to many background BS because of the cloud or I am sure the super nerds here will have a better idea.

    Otherwise, it hasn't glitched on creat used to represent a ion or toolpathing yet for me.
    Don't you mean super-nurbs ?


    Without knowing that many details I'd say you probably need a more powerful graphics sub-system (graphics card or equivalent) , seems that Bobcad and Mastercam know how to handle and render your data very efficiently (appropriately) whereas Fusion 360 may be rendering your holes with higher graphics setting and hence you "Crash" 'cuz the software/ Fusion 360 has a higher graphics overhead. Maybe there are some graphics settings that can be choked down on Fusion 360 that will stop you from crashing. For example 360 may be trying to render all those 500 holes three dimensionally real time, there may be a setting that allows you to click and drag but it's rendered as a bounding box while dragging and when you un-click it then draws the pretty picture to the screen of all your 500 holes etc. (kind of thing) or number line segments used to represent a hole / facets could be reduced etc.


    __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________


    I have to admit I'm becoming 'Fusion-curios" to the point of downloading it... However I'm currently in a remote location and have to rely on mobile "Hot-spot"... Normally when I have been in New Mexico even locally DSL/ Broadband really sucks , faulty switching equipment and dodgy copper cabling … I'm mainly PC based but if you run MAC on variable DSL , slightly dodgy lines it makes Mac's 20X more unreliable (huge pain in the arse). The folks at apple designed mac with the assumption that very GOOD and steady bandwidth is always available (city folks).

    If one is downloading donkey porn one pixel at a time on dial up then I think cloud "Computing" is probably a no go. I don't know how much "Cloud based" systems for CAD CAM sort of discriminate against very rural or remote shops that won't have "Fiber" (optic cable / high bandwidth internet service for another 15 years ?).

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    It's my understanding / correct me if I am wrong...


    1. With Fusion 360 it RUNS on your computer locally (the core application / executable is on your computer), the heavy lifting and processing is being carried out on your computer (real time) and is not being processed on a remote server (real time). I.e. It's not sending you the results of massive computations carried out remotely like a "Dumb terminal" / (client/server model).


    2. However small amounts of data are shuttled back and fourth from your computer to the cloud account (much smaller volume of data but in the background periodically.) [until it's time to save your work or update etc. ? ].

    3. You have the option of storing your CAD files and data and tool paths and other intermediate files locally on your own computer OR you can store them (automatically) in the cloud account ? <<<< There seems to be many diverse opinions about that ?

    4. What files etc. does Fusion 360 force you to store in their Cloud ?

    5. If you don't have access to the internet is Fusion 360 100% inoperable ?

    6. How long can you go without being connected to the internet with Fusion 360 ?


    TIA / Ta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    It's my understanding / correct me if I am wrong...


    1. With Fusion 360 it RUNS on your computer locally (the core application / executable is on your computer), the heavy lifting and processing is being carried out on your computer (real time) and is not being processed on a remote server (real time). I.e. It's not sending you the results of massive computations carried out remotely like a "Dumb terminal" / (client/server model).


    2. However small amounts of data are shuttled back and fourth from your computer to the cloud account (much smaller volume of data but in the background periodically.) [until it's time to save your work or update etc. ? ].

    3. You have the option of storing your CAD files and data and tool paths and other intermediate files locally on your own computer OR you can store them (automatically) in the cloud account ? <<<< There seems to be many diverse opinions about that ?

    4. What files etc. does Fusion 360 force you to store in their Cloud ?

    5. If you don't have access to the internet is Fusion 360 100% inoperable ?

    6. How long can you go without being connected to the internet with Fusion 360 ?


    TIA / Ta.
    this is a link to some of the things you are asking Help

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    Quote Originally Posted by len_1962 View Post
    this is a link to some of the things you are asking Help
    Yup that pretty much covers it ,

    THANKS !



    If it were me looking at those workflow options I'd create "Dummy" data sets (of different sizes and complexity) / files and do many dress rehearsals on them to make sure that I know how all of these options and scenarios work in advance (all the nooks and crannies). Make sure I had that really "Down" / automatic before I inflicted that workflow on important real work, rather than finding out how things work at the 11th hour (sweating bullets) on super important stuff. [And in general with test ("Dummy") data sets see what it takes to actually make the software/your computer fall-over / crash with something like Fusion 360, just get a feel for what the sensible limits really are.]. [Seems that Fusion 360 still has a long road ahead of them.].


    Seems 360 has to 'Check in" online with its clients (from the "buzzword/cloud" ) every two weeks.


    Interesting they did stress "Buy Inventor" if you need a truly stand alone implementation.

    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________________


    ** Old school hack for testing / trialing commercial software if you fall behind on your testing schedule and time / trial period is running out was to keep resetting your time and date on your computer to an earlier time. But with Cloud based systems 'THEY" know what the real day , date and time really is lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by len_1962 View Post
    this is a link to some of the things you are asking Help
    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Yup that pretty much covers it
    lol, could anyone guess Autodesks reply to the question 'is the cloud safe'

    As cameraman eluded to, F360 does need to check in. Ya you can work offline but the file has to be stored locally before you can access it. Have a file in the cloud and suddenly the internet is down? Too bad, you're SOL.

    The transform issue above, he mentioned it was 2D geometry, if Fusion cant move 500 circles without crashing it's useless....maybe you just need to purchase some cloud credits to be able to translate geometry

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Don't you mean super-nurbs ?


    Without knowing that many details I'd say you probably need a more powerful graphics sub-system (graphics card or equivalent) , seems that Bobcad and Mastercam know how to handle and render your data very efficiently (appropriately) whereas Fusion 360 may be rendering your holes with higher graphics setting and hence you "Crash" 'cuz the software/ Fusion 360 has a higher graphics overhead. Maybe there are some graphics settings that can be choked down on Fusion 360 that will stop you from crashing. For example 360 may be trying to render all those 500 holes three dimensionally real time, there may be a setting that allows you to click and drag but it's rendered as a bounding box while dragging and when you un-click it then draws the pretty picture to the screen of all your 500 holes etc. (kind of thing) or number line segments used to represent a hole / facets could be reduced etc.


    __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________


    I have to admit I'm becoming 'Fusion-curios" to the point of downloading it... However I'm currently in a remote location and have to rely on mobile "Hot-spot"... Normally when I have been in New Mexico even locally DSL/ Broadband really sucks , faulty switching equipment and dodgy copper cabling … I'm mainly PC based but if you run MAC on variable DSL , slightly dodgy lines it makes Mac's 20X more unreliable (huge pain in the arse). The folks at apple designed mac with the assumption that very GOOD and steady bandwidth is always available (city folks).

    If one is downloading donkey porn one pixel at a time on dial up then I think cloud "Computing" is probably a no go. I don't know how much "Cloud based" systems for CAD CAM sort of discriminate against very rural or remote shops that won't have "Fiber" (optic cable / high bandwidth internet service for another 15 years ?).
    mastercam is TERRIBLE at that. i have a very solid rig with i7 8700k overclocked to 5.1ghz on water, 32gb pc3400 ram, samsung 960 SSD and quadro 4000 along with 1080ti cards and even simple part simulations are glitchy/stutter like crazy. fuck mastercam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    mastercam is TERRIBLE at that. i have a very solid rig with i7 8700k overclocked to 5.1ghz on water, 32gb pc3400 ram, samsung 960 SSD and quadro 4000 along with 1080ti cards and even simple part simulations are glitchy/stutter like crazy. fuck mastercam.
    I'm running on like half of that with no issues. Why on earth did you mix a quadro with a gtx? Your life prob would have been easier with 2 the same.

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    [QUOTE=goooose;3379826 Ya you can work offline but the file has to be stored locally before you can access it. Have a file in the cloud and suddenly the internet is down? Too bad, you're SOL.[/QUOTE]

    With how I have Fusion set up if I have worked on the file in the last 364 days I am fine if the internet goes down, and you can import some file formats without internet access. Yeah I don't like storing in the cloud either but my shop computer is hooked up to the internet anyway so....

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    Quote Originally Posted by goooose View Post
    I'm running on like half of that with no issues. Why on earth did you mix a quadro with a gtx? Your life prob would have been easier with 2 the same.
    +1
    Probably graphics compatibility/settings issue, or it could be (probably not) verify settings...

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    Random interlude …




    ^^^ This makes for a good "Lunch'n learn"; Thread milling cycles on ESPRIT vs. Fusion 360. Some super tests carried out at Peter Stanton's home shop too..

    The devil is always in detail with these types of differences (obviously) , but superficially a lot of people are ready to jump off the seemingly too expensive software train to find various mini- "brick walls" / "can't get there form here' in on the low level yet important / critical stuff on the cheaper solution. (In some cases).

    Hopefully both ESPRIT and Fusion 360 developers / engineers watched Peter Stanton's Vid.


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