ATTN: Fusion

Here's a thought.


I use an internet connection to download, it registers to my computers MAC address or whatever so it can only be used on that computer. I pay ya..mmm $1000. It has a built in stop clock. After 365 days I need to reconnect. I pay you another mmmmm $250 to update/subscription. I unhook my internet cable and move one. I continue to do this for the next 10yrs?

I have shit internet. This is a business model that can work and make you money. Just get your shit together and do it. Your software was the easiest to learn by far from Mastercam, Solidworks, and others.

Or...you don't do this and you lose potential LONG TERM customers. I may upgrade to full inventor in 5yrs if a business takes off. You don't know.

Best wishes,
XoXo

If they did that, how are they supposed to mine all of your engineering and use data?

Why do you think Fusion is so cheap? Because the data you generate for them are the real product.

jhov said:

If they did that, how are they supposed to mine all of your engineering and use data?

Why do you think Fusion is so cheap? Because the data you generate for them are the real product.

Click to expand...

As much as I hate autodicks, I don't think that is true at all.
The reasons it is cloud based is because it is cheaper for them to distribute. And, they can control how you use it.
No install disks/drives/dongles to produce/distribute, and your tie to the web is their avenue for control (you WILL pay, or your shit don't work).
And, it keeps all the beta testers on the same page.
The reason it is cheap in the first place is because it still isn't ready for prime time (see beta testers above).
If anybody thinks the price will not increase with quality, they be a damn fool.

wheelieking71 said:

The reason it is cheap in the first place is because it still isn't ready for prime time (see beta testers above).
If anybody thinks the price will not increase with quality, they be a damn fool.

Click to expand...

Well, they've started to bite their Inventor userbase in the ass, and the rumblings are starting ...
First, the very enthusiast Fusion Peddlers from within ADSK started poking at the FeatureCAM users on the FC forum, only to have their hat handed to them in a hurry.
Now, they did the same idiotic thing in the Inventor forum, only to receive the very same - albeit polite - fuck-off response.

Honestly, now that I'm off maintenance on both only to have saved over $5K in the last 4 months, all I do is sit back with a bag of and watch what'll happen in the coming years.

wheelieking71 said:

As much as I hate autodicks, I don't think that is true at all.
The reasons it is cloud based is because it is cheaper for them to distribute. And, they can control how you use it.
No install disks/drives/dongles to produce/distribute, and your tie to the web is their avenue for control (you WILL pay, or your shit don't work).
And, it keeps all the beta testers on the same page.
The reason it is cheap in the first place is because it still isn't ready for prime time (see beta testers above).
If anybody thinks the price will not increase with quality, they be a damn fool.

Click to expand...

I have no doubt that the price will increase and features will be stripped and relocated into separate packages. It is the ADSK way to do so.. But I'm also sure that the data you are creating on their platform is extremely valuable to them. It will enable them (or anyone they sell it to) to develop some very advanced technologies that would not be possible otherwise.

jhov said:

I'm also sure that the data you are creating on their platform is extremely valuable to them. It will enable them (or anyone they sell it to) to develop some very advanced technologies that would not be possible otherwise.

Click to expand...

Please elaborate..............(cause I smell a "conspiracy theory", and I can't see the angle)

wheelieking71 said:

Please elaborate..............(cause I smell a "conspiracy theory", and I can't see the angle)

Click to expand...

It's not a conspiracy theory at all.

The modern method of creating "artificial intelligence" is by building deep learning algorithms, which construct data models, which are then used by inference algorithms to make decisions.

It requires huge amounts of data to get valid results, hence why datamining has been such a profitable enterprise for the last two decades, and why facebook for example is worth money, despite not (overtly) selling a product, while supporting a vast infrastructure. As has become popular to say, "the product is you!".

Prior to Fusion (and Onshape, and all the other "cloud based collaboration" platforms that suddenly exist), there was no data to mine. Now there is, and there's your angle.

gregormarwick is absolutely right, and this is coming from someone who works for a CAM developer (though not a cloud-based system). But I see this as also having a lot of potential benefits to the future of CAM.

In the past the only possible way they could understand how end-users were using their product was on a case-by-case basis, talking to individual customers, asking what they like/dislike, etc. - very small sample sizes. Now with "data mining" they would be able to see which functions of their software are used the most, and which haven't been clicked in months, and devote their R&D resources according to REAL data (instead of just who is "screaming the loudest").

Or, in the more extreme case mentioned above, they could create "artificial intelligence" based on a ton of actual user-programmed parts to get CAM to the point where it can do more of the thinking for you (based on what others in the industry are doing), instead of forcing you to set every single parameter yourself. With the industry having a harder and harder time finding good programmers and people who actually know machining, know proper feeds/speeds, know how to make 5x toolpaths... I personally see this as a good thing. But I know many in this industry won't like it, so it will need to be an optional functionality IMO.

gregormarwick said:

It's not a conspiracy theory at all.

The modern method of creating "artificial intelligence" is by building deep learning algorithms, which construct data models, which are then used by inference algorithms to make decisions.

It requires huge amounts of data to get valid results, hence why datamining has been such a profitable enterprise for the last two decades, and why facebook for example is worth money, despite not (overtly) selling a product, while supporting a vast infrastructure. As has become popular to say, "the product is you!".

Prior to Fusion (and Onshape, and all the other "cloud based collaboration" platforms that suddenly exist), there was no data to mine. Now there is, and there's your angle.

Click to expand...

Well, I guess this is way over my head (self admitted tech retard over here).
I don't follow it because it scares me. I do not like the removal of the human factor at all.

I just can't imagine them having mined anything worth something from the Fusion user base, just think a minute about who is the target audience and what sort of stuff is designed there - so suggesting that is their goal seems a bit far fetched for me, the "knowledge" accumulated from that will simply not be applicable to customers who might benefit from it, and regarding compiling usage statistics - absolutely no problem with that, look at the time I wasted trying to figure out 3d chamfer toolpaths, hopefully they'll see that and develop something useful there...

I think they moved to "cloud" just because they could combat piracy easier, and more importantly because the availability of the internet now allows for it, and they are doing the typical thing - introduce lots of goodies for testing, once testing is done, move most valuable stuff behind "cloud credits" - which you'll reluctantly pay for, since it is still cheaper than buying "real" cadcam package, it is just business, they are here to make money from you, it is as simple as that

jz79 said:

I think they moved to "cloud" just because they could combat piracy easier, and more importantly because the availability of the internet now allows for it, and they are doing the typical thing - introduce lots of goodies for testing, once testing is done, move most valuable stuff behind "cloud credits" - which you'll reluctantly pay for, since it is still cheaper than buying "real" cadcam package, it is just business, they are here to make money from you, it is as simple as that

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I think you nailed it, Jz79. I played with Fusion a few times over the past several years, but with the understanding that they would pull some stunt in the near future. Therefore I was not a bit surprised with this whole licensing thing.

Dan L

jz79 said:

I think they moved to "cloud" just because they could combat piracy easier, and more importantly because the availability of the internet now allows for it, and they are doing the typical thing - introduce lots of goodies for testing, once testing is done, move most valuable stuff behind "cloud credits" - which you'll reluctantly pay for, since it is still cheaper than buying "real" cadcam package, it is just business, they are here to make money from you, it is as simple as that

Click to expand...

AD don't give a fuck about piracy. One of their core policies for as long as they've been around is "a user stealing our software is better than a user buying our competitors software".

Now, the bait and switch is certainly true, but to believe that data aggregation is not a core goal is extremely naive.

gregormarwick said:

AD don't give a fuck about piracy.

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They like piracy. That's what made them numbah one in architectural and way up there in mechanical. That's what killed off several of their competitors. They just dislike it after all their competition is gone.

Interesting discussion.

Hadn't really thought about AI and Machine Learning in the context of CAD/CAM, but it certainly makes a lot of sense.

The hype behind metal 3D printing was always centered around its ease of use. Cycle times be damned, and quality straight off the printer was/is just wishful thinking.

CAD/CAM with AI seems to strive for the same goal: ease of use, especially for folks with limited machining experience.

I have tried all the big players in the cloud based CADCAM world. I hate every single one of them. I think using Solidworks is a whole lot nicer, easier, and more comfortable than fucking around with OnShape or Fusion. Neither of those cloud based options are as feature rich, powerful, robust, and proven as Solidworks is. Also I just hate running things in a browser. I get that Fusion has a desktop as well. I have nothing against Autodesk whatsoever as a company, I think they are shrewd businesspeople.

But, how many "top shops" use cloud based software? NONE. No one in aerospace and defense can use it because ITAR. Some NDAs probably forbid people from using it. Some may talk about how that isn't that big of a deal blah blah but that is a massive handicap with the software. If I started a company no way in hell am I going to use Fusion.

Many people hate on Mastercam. To those who hate on it, I say this: if you hate it because you use Esprit or Fusion or NX or Hypermill and you like the way those interfaces work better, or they work better for your specific application, fine. But if the user hates Mastercam because they used X7 and hated it then and haven't tried 2021 or recent versions, I would implore them to give the newer versions a chance.

Or if the user says "doing anything in Mastercam takes forever or is too hard or makes no sense or whatever" then I tell that person that it is a training issue and they just don't know the software. No problem with that because luckily Mastercam has a shitload of content out there to use to learn. Mastercam is craaaaazy powerful if you learn to harness that power. It ain't as easy as Fusion can be, but Fusion is also NOWHERE near as powerful as Mastercam, not even close. Anyone who tries to convince me of that is just disingenuous.

Fusion 360 has a lot of good things going for it. For one thing it doesn't cost $20,000 a seat, which is huge. If Autodesk could develop a licensing model that has something like Fusion Pro (bring in some PowerMill features...)with all of the "big player" features and simultaneous 5-axis stuff I would absolutely consider using it. I really would like to see a full-fledged pro version of Fusion because I think they could do some really great things while also undercutting all of the big players on price, thereby bringing competition and lowering prices across the board. $4k annual Pro subscription and being ITAR compliant is something that could raise a lot of eyebrows and turn some heads in the industry. As it stands now, I just don't see Fusion shaking the rep it has of being kneecapped CAM software.