AutoDesk HSMWorks - I am cutting my losses and jumping ship. What next? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    Sure, you can call it that. I for one don't really care about the internals of the software and where they come from. I am more interested in the parts I interact with the UI/UX and the generated code.
    Bingo! I never cared for the arguments of "Well they didn't develop it, they just bought the technology" because... I don't care. I just want the tools if they're good tools. I don't give a plop who "invented" it. I'm not joining a sports team when I use someone's software. This isn't like the Yankees 'buying' their talent from other teams instead of raising and cultivating it themselves (I say, as a life long Cardinals fan...) so I really don't care if Autodesk bought a bunch of stuff to put into their Mech Design software, nor do I care of BobCAD acquired a module to make it better. Both show investment in bettering the product.
    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    So I will still say the end result is BobCAM pulled ahead of them in the things that matter. Gcode, UI/UX, or work flow and features. But it was encouraging to see that with absolute control on the kernel and all code Autodesk could fix the part off bug in only 2 years. Just think if they would have had to wait on a 3rd party to fix the kernel. People would probably still be waiting.
    I will say that I've seen more activity from Autodesk on the user forums and other tech support interactions than I saw 10 years ago, or so. A surprising amount, even. I think they have learned how to listen, for once. Inventor has come a long, long way since I remember it... I've been looking into it pretty heavily lately. Been using Fusion360 for over a year or so now, but was curious about Inventor for employment related reasons.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNieman View Post
    Bingo! I never cared for the arguments of "Well they didn't develop it, they just bought the technology" because... I don't care. I just want the tools if they're good tools. I don't give a plop who "invented" it.
    Exactly. Usually, those people are the same ones that don't realize that MOST CAM systems get their algorithms and wrappers from ModuleWorks. As long as it works and gets the job done, who cares?

  3. #43
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    Why not buy a fusion 360 license, if you don't care about integration, its is WAY cheaper than anything else out there.

    200/year in the right circumstance vs. thousands.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettedude View Post
    Why not buy a fusion 360 license, if you don't care about integration, its is WAY cheaper than anything else out there.
    200/year in the right circumstance vs. thousands.
    Fusion is great for what it is, but it is certainly NOT ready for prime time. There are still WAY too many bugs and issues for a shop to have to contend with in my humble opinion. It does not do turning capably and is still battling a lot of issues including data loss. It will get there. But it is not there yet. They are still battling issues of (over)enthusiastic people making statements of things it will do, when it clearly does not. That results in a lot of confusion as to what it actually does do and some major aggravations.

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  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettedude View Post
    Why not buy a fusion 360 license, if you don't care about integration, its is WAY cheaper than anything else out there.

    200/year in the right circumstance vs. thousands.
    Because Fusion is product of Autodesk.

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice..........

    I looked at a lot of products before I sent Bobcam a check. I'm at version 27 now and so far it's done everything I know how to do and the Salesmen leave me alone

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettedude View Post
    Why not buy a fusion 360 license, if you don't care about integration, its is WAY cheaper than anything else out there.

    200/year in the right circumstance vs. thousands.
    Yes and it forces you to work online with every save and your data resides on someone else's server. I think it requires a ton of naive optimism to believe working online with and renting your intellectual property back from someone is wise. What value do you place on your intellectual property may I ask?

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  9. #47
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    It never ceases to amaze me that people buying expensive machine tools are somehow flummoxed with the concept that software (shockingly complex and built upon an endlessly shifting foundation of technologies) should be so cheap.

    And when someone pulls off the trick of giving them something that IS cheap (Fusion 360), they shit on it relentlessly.

    You need to pay to play here people. If you don't like it, I am sure there is some ratfuck shop in China running a pirated copy of NX who will be happy to take your business.

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  11. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me that people buying expensive machine tools are somehow flummoxed with the concept that software (shockingly complex and built upon an endlessly shifting foundation of technologies) should be so cheap.

    And when someone pulls off the trick of giving them something that IS cheap (Fusion 360), they shit on it relentlessly.

    You need to pay to play here people. If you don't like it, I am sure there is some ratfuck shop in China running a pirated copy of NX who will be happy to take your business.

    Man, that post is priceless!

    Really? Cheap?
    Well, let's see.
    CAD Perpetual license = $10K and some
    CAM perp. license = $10K and some
    Annual maintenance on each is approx 1/4-1/6 th of purchase price, so every 4 - 6 years a new perpetual seat is effectively purchased ( in lieu of having the most current sw. available )

    That is not good enough? Really?
    So you're also OK with machinetool manufacturers switching to lease-only distribution of their products?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me that people buying expensive machine tools are somehow flummoxed with the concept that software (shockingly complex and built upon an endlessly shifting foundation of technologies) should be so cheap.

    And when someone pulls off the trick of giving them something that IS cheap (Fusion 360), they shit on it relentlessly.

    You need to pay to play here people. If you don't like it, I am sure there is some ratfuck shop in China running a pirated copy of NX who will be happy to take your business.
    Ha ha Seymore, you are ahead of me. I can't figure out a reasonable response to this one

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    it never ceases to amaze me that people buying expensive machine tools are somehow flummoxed with the concept that software (shockingly complex and built upon an endlessly shifting foundation of technologies) should be so cheap.

    And when someone pulls off the trick of giving them something that is cheap (fusion 360), they shit on it relentlessly.

    You need to pay to play here people. If you don't like it, i am sure there is some ratfuck shop in china running a pirated copy of nx who will be happy to take your business.
    *rolleyes* just wait until they pull the rug out from under you and leave you eating a shit sandwich alone on your porch!

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    I am floored that BobCam is being tossed out as a contender - this is news.

    Spoke with MasterCAM today and am going to get the 2017 Mill demo... Now - is the Mill considered really the same functionality as a 2.5D? And the 3D more in tune with HSMWorks 3D? Reason I ask - I think HSMWorks 2.5D Adaptive clearing is a horrific piece of shit... the 3D version is badass... will I see similar stuff in the Mill vs Mill 3D MasterCAM?

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  17. #52
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    HSMXpress and Mastercam 2D Mill are fairly comparable. Mastercam is shittier, but you get to pay money for it, so that's nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlockwood View Post
    HSMXpress and Mastercam 2D Mill are fairly comparable. Mastercam is shittier, but you get to pay money for it, so that's nice.
    damnit... So it looks like I'll have to go for the 3D... Well I've got time to save... and time to wait and see what the Soliworks CAM / CAMworks looks like... Still would like to demo SolidCAM as well...maybe EdgeCAM too.

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    Might take a look at Visualmill (Mecsoft); reasonable price, very good service/support, free demo, direct sales (no salespeople/distributors hounding you) apparently started by former Unigraphics/NX folks (I can see some of the "logic" similarities).

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Man, that post is priceless!

    Really? Cheap?
    Well, let's see.
    CAD Perpetual license = $10K and some
    CAM perp. license = $10K and some
    Annual maintenance on each is approx 1/4-1/6 th of purchase price, so every 4 - 6 years a new perpetual seat is effectively purchased ( in lieu of having the most current sw. available )

    That is not good enough? Really?
    So you're also OK with machinetool manufacturers switching to lease-only distribution of their products?
    Cheap... because Autodesk is basically letting perpetual licenses on maintenance convert their license over to a subscription for the same price as their maintenance contract through 2018, when it goes up 5% each year till 2020. So in 2020, he'll be paying $1800 a year to keep that seat current instead of $1500... For comparison, I'm on subscription and my seat is $2500 a year.

    All this anger over $300 more he'll be paying 3.5 years from now?

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  23. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Cheap... because Autodesk is basically letting perpetual licenses on maintenance convert their license over to a subscription for the same price as their maintenance contract through 2018,
    ...

    All this anger over $300 more he'll be paying 3.5 years from now?

    Are you F'in nuts or something?

    I have an Inventor PDSU ( or whatever it's called nowadays) and FeatureCAM Premium permanent license.
    Between the two of them I pay 'bout 5K/year for maintenance.
    Should I decide to give them the finger tomorrow, I'll still have 2017 of both forever.

    OTOH, should I take them up on their generous offer and go "subscription" for the same price, I'd be tits up once I decide enough is enough....

    Sorry, I'll stay on maintenance for as long as I want to....

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Are you F'in nuts or something?

    I have an Inventor PDSU ( or whatever it's called nowadays) and FeatureCAM Premium permanent license.
    Between the two of them I pay 'bout 5K/year for maintenance.
    Should I decide to give them the finger tomorrow, I'll still have 2017 of both forever.

    OTOH, should I take them up on their generous offer and go "subscription" for the same price, I'd be tits up once I decide enough is enough....

    Sorry, I'll stay on maintenance for as long as I want to....
    Cool!

    But this idea that a price increase over 3 years is somehow a crippling burden to your enterprise is just such complete tripe. Does it suck? Sure... but the writing on here makes it sound like Carl Bass is coming to Autodesk CAM customer's shops and kicking them in the balls while pouring molasses in their coolant tanks. It's the sort of histrionics one expects to hear more from a non-binary genderqueer political rally on the UC Berkeley quad, not a machinists forum.

    I can't speak to FeatureCAM or whatever you're running, but for HSM Works, the price increase (in 3 years!) amounts to an extra pair Sandvik coolant through drills a year. Who gives a shit? Not that I wanna piss money away, but HSM Works is so crazy productive enough for me that Autodesk would need to bend me over a way bigger god damn barrel before the cost-benefit analysis started to sneeze at that sort of a price increase.

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  26. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    I've been using Mastercam since the 90's and while it's not cheap, I've never had any of the complaints that everyone else does with just about every other cad/cam program out there, with regards to lack of support, lack of updates, being bought out, etc...
    It's absolutely worth every penny, and has the best customer support you could ask for.
    THANK YOU! Every time I say something good about Mastercam let the shit storm start! I'm glad there are a few user here that have learned Mastercam (at least IMO this is the biggest complaint about MCX "it's toooo hard" )- if you learn it, it is great.

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  28. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Cool!

    But this idea that a price increase over 3 years is somehow a crippling burden to your enterprise is just such complete tripe. Does it suck? Sure... but the writing on here makes it sound like Carl Bass is coming to Autodesk CAM customer's shops and kicking them in the balls while pouring molasses in their coolant tanks. It's the sort of histrionics one expects to hear more from a non-binary genderqueer political rally on the UC Berkeley quad, not a machinists forum.

    I can't speak to FeatureCAM or whatever you're running, but for HSM Works, the price increase (in 3 years!) amounts to an extra pair Sandvik coolant through drills a year. Who gives a shit? Not that I wanna piss money away, but HSM Works is so crazy productive enough for me that Autodesk would need to bend me over a way bigger god damn barrel before the cost-benefit analysis started to sneeze at that sort of a price increase.
    I agree the over all price increase is not all that much and had it been just a standard price increase most probably would have been fine with it. But it is not. It is pressure to push people who already spent money on a perpetual license to change to the subscription/rental plan. That was pretty clear in Carls letter. He said running to different purchase policies is expensive and they would like to have everyone on subscription and eliminate the overhead associated with 2 plans. He also states that he just needs to find the right price points to motivate people to change. I think that is the PC version of "how much pressure will it take to force them to change." So according to the letter I read from carl the price increase had nothing to do with needing to raise price other that pressure to move people from the perpetual plan they were in. There was no indication that price was final. They will keep doing it until all are converted. So how would you feel if you paid $6K-$10K for software and your maintenance was exactly the same as subscription who never paid the upfront cost?

    You talk about people being cheap, but the only ones complaining about that are the ones who obviously paid the upfront price for it. So not cheap IMO. I bought HSM at full price before ADSK.

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  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Cool!

    But this idea that a price increase over 3 years is somehow a crippling burden to your enterprise is just such complete tripe. Does it suck? Sure... but the writing on here makes it sound like Carl Bass is coming to Autodesk CAM customer's shops and kicking them in the balls while pouring molasses in their coolant tanks. It's the sort of histrionics one expects to hear more from a non-binary genderqueer political rally on the UC Berkeley quad, not a machinists forum.

    I can't speak to FeatureCAM or whatever you're running, but for HSM Works, the price increase (in 3 years!) amounts to an extra pair Sandvik coolant through drills a year. Who gives a shit? Not that I wanna piss money away, but HSM Works is so crazy productive enough for me that Autodesk would need to bend me over a way bigger god damn barrel before the cost-benefit analysis started to sneeze at that sort of a price increase.
    Well you certainly have a way with words and what you think of people who hold different opinions. Now I will agree with your save money with HSM comments. However the cost of $1,500.00 maintenance today becomes $1,500 + 35% by 2019 because the 5% then 10% then 15% charges are cumulative. This is not the industry norm. What really bothers us the most though is the promise to do away entirely with our perpetual seats through some vehicle which probably will be far greater increases starting in 2020. The idea that with subscription only your data is held hostage by someone who does not have your interests in mind is a bit unsettling to many of us who make a living with our intellectual property. If you can't see that Autodesk intends to make all data hostages and this is a bad thing I don't know what to tell you. For many of us we will use our perpetual seats and starve the crooks at Autodesk out AND keep our production going just fine. Others however will volunteer to spend more to do the same thing and expose their goods to online hackers and figure they did the right thing.


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