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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Fusion is driving prices down across the board, and/or forcing otherwise stagnant players to start investing in innovation to justify a higher price. It is driving useless VARs out. It is forcing CAD/CAM makers to put more educational material online.

    All of this is good, and I think most of it wouldn't be happening without Fusion coming in and screwing up the 20 year old CAD/CAM pecking order.



    Not going to happen. It takes *years* to build this software up into something with basic capabilities, and double that if you want to be competitive. Fusion launched to the public 8 years ago, with 2 years of development behind it before that... so we're talking 10 years of backing from a giant company, a couple of billion in acquisitions (HSM Works, T-Splines, etc) for major functionality, and an entirely new/controversial business model. Even so, the discussions on here from 2-3 years ago were still focused on "Fusion is a toy!"
    In the UK, AD dropped their resellers by going direct with online purchase. To make more money.
    I had a great reseller - he had been loyal to them for a lot of years - "they" (AD) Do. Not. Care.
    They did this with a lot of companies

    Regarding it's taken years for AD to get where they have with Fusion, well it's AD isn't it?
    Would you expect anything else?
    And it's still a toy, until they port Delcam into it which I'm sure will happen when they drop Delcam as a product.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    No, maintenance is NOT subscription!
    Maintenance = Being up-to-date on your perpetual license
    Subscription = Rent-A-Software aka Ransomware
    Uh, I know the difference, and the CAM product in SW only works if your MAINTENANCE is current. If you don't pay your MAINTENANCE then some portions of the software STOP working such as CAM and Visualize. Which you can call maintenance but sure sounds about identical to Subscription. You can't access your old cam data once you stop paying that MAINTENANCE.

    Any my ponit to the post I commented about was that is similar to what ADSK did with their perpetual maintenance.

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    Per the dongle question. There are companies, that for a modest fee ($3-400'ish, cheaper than a new license!) will copy a dongle for you. I know years ago, can't say as to the here and now, Mastercam used to legally allow you to copy a dongle for backup purposes... Now with the internet though, they may not... do modern/current/new "plans" even offer a hard dongle vs a net-type/internet/online key??

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    In the UK, AD dropped their resellers by going direct with online purchase. To make more money.
    I had a great reseller - he had been loyal to them for a lot of years - "they" (AD) Do. Not. Care.
    They did this with a lot of companies

    Regarding it's taken years for AD to get where they have with Fusion, well it's AD isn't it?
    Would you expect anything else?
    And it's still a toy, until they port Delcam into it which I'm sure will happen when they drop Delcam as a product.
    Actually, there are still AD resellers in the UK. We never used a reseller, even when we were buying from Delcam, but they do exist. I added another seat of Featurecam recently and was told by our AD account manager that I should contact one of their resellers if I wanted more flexible payment options. I didn't pursue it, preferring to keep everything under a single account, but I checked them out, they exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Same plan here. Anybody ever had a dongle go bad?
    We haven't had a dongle go bad but we did have an issue recently to where the sentinel drive was corrupted and had to be reinstalled. Initially we thought it was the dongle and though we were going to have to go through AD customer service hell to get a resolution. That event has prompted us to start evaluating our options for a replacement CAM package. Which I need to get back to that search in the next month or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    Same thing SW is doing. CAM and Visualize only work while current on maintenance, which basically translates to subscription.
    All maintenance is backdated translates to subscription.
    Maybe with SW cam but that is crap anyway. If I stop paying my maintenance for either SW or my CAM I loose updates and tech support. IMO SW isn't worth paying maintenance for but CAM is.

    While fusion seems to offer a lot compared to a $5000 CAM package, it doesn't hold a candle to a $15,000+ package. There will always be people who make it work, and at one time I was one of them but IMO to use it as anything more than a stepping stone is crazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    Actually, there are still AD resellers in the UK. We never used a reseller, even when we were buying from Delcam, but they do exist. I added another seat of Featurecam recently and was told by our AD account manager that I should contact one of their resellers if I wanted more flexible payment options. I didn't pursue it, preferring to keep everything under a single account, but I checked them out, they exist.
    I stand corrected then.
    I'm wondering if the ones that exist are big. And perhaps AD wanted to remove the smaller ones only, leaving fewer but bigger dealers?
    Mine definitely got kicked into touch, but he was small.
    But I was only buying/updating the CAD side (LT/Inventor).

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    I stand corrected then.
    I'm wondering if the ones that exist are big. And perhaps AD wanted to remove the smaller ones only, leaving fewer but bigger dealers?
    Mine definitely got kicked into touch, but he was small.
    But I was only buying/updating the CAD side (LT/Inventor).
    Yes, the ones I got pointed towards seem to be pretty big outfits. Still don't see the point though, I've never had a problem getting support from AD or Delcam before them.

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    Being in the MFG space, you all may not be aware of the complaints that have been going on in their Architectural space.

    AEC Magazine had an open letter to Autodesk, signed by some 17 large architectural firms, about the lack of development for the subscription dollar in Revit. (July/Aug Edition) PDFs

    Autodesk replied and admitted they have underinvested in Revit. Autodesk Admits It's Underinvested in Revit Development, Over 100 Firms Want Change | 2020-08-03 | Engineering News-Record

    Here's a link that kind of compiles several articles on the issue. upFront.eZine News Archives: Readers Respond: "We're No Longer Happy with Revit"

    Anyone see any parallels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    Maybe with SW cam but that is crap anyway. If I stop paying my maintenance for either SW or my CAM I loose updates and tech support. IMO SW isn't worth paying maintenance for but CAM is.

    While fusion seems to offer a lot compared to a $5000 CAM package, it doesn't hold a candle to a $15,000+ package. There will always be people who make it work, and at one time I was one of them but IMO to use it as anything more than a stepping stone is crazy.
    I agree just pointing out that many are trying different tactics to get you to pay yearly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    Being in the MFG space, you all may not be aware of the complaints that have been going on in their Architectural space.

    AEC Magazine had an open letter to Autodesk, signed by some 17 large architectural firms, about the lack of development for the subscription dollar in Revit. (July/Aug Edition) PDFs

    Autodesk replied and admitted they have underinvested in Revit. Autodesk Admits It's Underinvested in Revit Development, Over 100 Firms Want Change | 2020-08-03 | Engineering News-Record

    Here's a link that kind of compiles several articles on the issue. upFront.eZine News Archives: Readers Respond: "We're No Longer Happy with Revit"

    Anyone see any parallels?
    Sure there are parallels. But one big difference. The people writing are long term customers with lots of history with ADSK. You wont see any big international company writing a letter on fusion. Because there are likely no large international companies that have adopted it to the level AEC and BIM have.

    Jeff you work for Siemens. What product do you offer that ever comes close to Fusion?

    They offer nothing even close on price for what you get with fusion. Fusion is all many people need.

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    For those curious, here is a link to the Siemens subscripoitn for CAD/CAM 2.5axis and turning. Pretty basic level of cam

    NX Cloud - CAD CAM 2.5-Axis Milling & Turning

    $7308 per year subscription.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    For those curious, here is a link to the Siemens subscripoitn for CAD/CAM 2.5axis and turning. Pretty basic level of cam

    NX Cloud - CAD CAM 2.5-Axis Milling & Turning

    $7308 per year subscription.
    Wow... [more words]

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    Being in the MFG space, you all may not be aware of the complaints that have been going on in their Architectural space.

    AEC Magazine had an open letter to Autodesk, signed by some 17 large architectural firms, about the lack of development for the subscription dollar in Revit. (July/Aug Edition) PDFs

    Autodesk replied and admitted they have underinvested in Revit. Autodesk Admits It's Underinvested in Revit Development, Over 100 Firms Want Change | 2020-08-03 | Engineering News-Record

    Here's a link that kind of compiles several articles on the issue. upFront.eZine News Archives: Readers Respond: "We're No Longer Happy with Revit"

    Anyone see any parallels?
    It's the same way with Civil 3D. The company I left to get back into manufacturing had a process to check and make sure all of the templates, block, dim styles, etc. worked as expected each year after the yearly "upgrade" of C3D came out. Plus there are many firms that refuse to use that particular product due to initial cost and maintenance. AD pretty much only listens to the national firms for development input. So the tool set available for the smaller firms that don't specialize in highway work is not as great as you would expect. If other companies such as Carlson would do a big push to get their user interface to a better point they would start to own the civil engineering market with their prices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    In the UK, AD dropped their resellers by going direct with online purchase. To make more money.
    The VAR is getting a 50% cut of every sale. In my experience, I never called my SolidWorks VAR in the 10 years I was a SW user. I’m too small for my NX VAR to give much of a damn about, and getting support is cumbersome.

    So in my experience, the VAR is a middleman taking a massive cut of the sale and providing little value. I would take direct online instant sales + a library of video tutorials and a 40% price cut over a VAR any day of the week.

    Hell, the lack of resellers is fully half of the reason Fusion is so cheap.

    Regarding it's taken years for AD to get where they have with Fusion, well it's AD isn't it?
    Would you expect anything else?
    And it's still a toy, until they port Delcam into it which I'm sure will happen when they drop Delcam as a product.
    Ok, if AD is so bad- show me the dynamic market of startup CAD/CAM companies... Ohh- you can’t, because there isn’t one!

    CAD/CAM is a shitty market to be in. The software is some of the most complex in the world, the customer base is tiny, and the industry battle lines were drawn 20 years ago. Fusion (and to a lesser extent, OnShape) are the only disruptive entities to show up in decades.

    So you can hate Autodeak and think Fusion is crappy all you want, but we are all benefiting from their existence. This is the first time in 30 years guys like SolidWorks, Creo, MasterCAM, even Siemens are starting to get worried they might lose market share... and that is a very good thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    Sure there are parallels. But one big difference. The people writing are long term customers with lots of history with ADSK. You wont see any big international company writing a letter on fusion. Because there are likely no large international companies that have adopted it to the level AEC and BIM have.
    I was thinking the parallel with the Delcam customers, as like Revit, they were an acquisition. And, as with Revit, I think many, especially those with products that are discontinued or being discontinued, could start to be unhappy.

    Jeff you work for Siemens. What product do you offer that ever comes close to Fusion?

    They offer nothing even close on price for what you get with fusion. Fusion is all many people need.
    Oh I totally agree, Fusion is a great value for job shops, and for many many shops, it is all they need. Question: Is the CAM job shop market place large enough for two Fusions, especially if the first one may or may not be profitable yet? Why should someone else make one? Could a company like MasterCAM make a product like it and keep it along at a loss for several years? I've been surprised that there has not been more consolidation in the CAM market as it is. There are a ton more CAM products out there than CAD, and all fighting for a piece of a much smaller pie.

    Overall, CAM seats have a small attach rate to CAD seats. No company the size of PTC, Dassault, Siemens or even Autodesk wakes up one day and says, "let's make a great, inexpensive, product for job shops." - it's not a big enough potential return for them, and could be a long term loss. If you can actually disrupt a bigger market like CAD design - sure, maybe worth a try. My thought has always been that someday, someone has to be the Microsoft Office of 3D. Today, a huge percentage of computers have Office because everyone uses at least one part of office. Maybe someday, most everyone will have some type of 3D program on their computer, and when that day comes, Fusion, disrupting the CAD market, could be positioned to be the defacto standard. I have no crystal ball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    For those curious, here is a link to the Siemens subscripoitn for CAD/CAM 2.5axis and turning. Pretty basic level of cam

    $7308 per year subscription.

    Comparing Fusion to NX is a joke. Its the same as comparing trucks.

    If you start a moving business, a rusty 1982 Ford F150 will work fine. If you are moving massive machinery for SpaceX cross country you will need that nice shiny Kenworth W990. Does that mean Kenworth needs to make an offering for the guy hauling rubbish in his 1982 Ford? Why would they bother? Why would Siemens bother making a $300 a year software? As AD gets Fusion closer to NX, so will its price. Sure, the price of NX may come down a bit during that process but I doubt it will move much.

    Large publicly traded corporations do not exist to make the world a better place. They exist to make their shareholders money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Fusion is driving prices down across the board, and/or forcing otherwise stagnant players to start investing in innovation to justify a higher price. It is driving useless VARs out. It is forcing CAD/CAM makers to put more educational material online.

    All of this is good, and I think most of it wouldn't be happening without Fusion coming in and screwing up the 20 year old CAD/CAM pecking order.
    It would be good, were it not for three little words: Subscription, cloud, internet.

    Because of those three words? It is a laughable shit-show.

    ad's MO precedes them. Nothing has changed (other than Delcam customers got fucked).

    It is only a matter of time before they fuck everybody. That is what they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    So you can hate Autodeak and think Fusion is crappy all you want, but we are all benefiting from their existence. This is the first time in 30 years guys like SolidWorks, Creo, MasterCAM, even Siemens are starting to get worried they might lose market share... and that is a very good thing.
    Bullshit!

    Show me a long-time Perpetually licensed FeatureCAM or Powermill user that is happy with ad.
    I know you are no fool, but, if you think them buying Delcam was not a business strategy based solely on long term profits, at the expense of every Delcam customer?
    Hey, if the shoe fits. They could have shaken up the market in many other more scrupulous ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goooose View Post
    Comparing Fusion to NX is a joke. Its the same as comparing trucks.

    If you start a moving business, a rusty 1982 Ford F150 will work fine. If you are moving massive machinery for SpaceX cross country you will need that nice shiny Kenworth W990. Does that mean Kenworth needs to make an offering for the guy hauling rubbish in his 1982 Ford? Why would they bother? Why would Siemens bother making a $300 a year software? As AD gets Fusion closer to NX, so will its price. Sure, the price of NX may come down a bit during that process but I doubt it will move much.

    Large publicly traded corporations do not exist to make the world a better place. They exist to make their shareholders money.
    LOL. Your right an older Kenworth could never haul a load like that.


    The link was to 2.52 axis NX. Please list a couple of things it can do that 2.5axis fusion can't.

    Like it on not Fusion is putting pressure on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    I was thinking the parallel with the Delcam customers, as like Revit, they were an acquisition. And, as with Revit, I think many, especially those with products that are discontinued or being discontinued, could start to be unhappy.



    Oh I totally agree, Fusion is a great value for job shops, and for many many shops, it is all they need. Question: Is the CAM job shop market place large enough for two Fusions, especially if the first one may or may not be profitable yet? Why should someone else make one? Could a company like MasterCAM make a product like it and keep it along at a loss for several years? I've been surprised that there has not been more consolidation in the CAM market as it is. There are a ton more CAM products out there than CAD, and all fighting for a piece of a much smaller pie.

    Overall, CAM seats have a small attach rate to CAD seats. No company the size of PTC, Dassault, Siemens or even Autodesk wakes up one day and says, "let's make a great, inexpensive, product for job shops." - it's not a big enough potential return for them, and could be a long term loss. If you can actually disrupt a bigger market like CAD design - sure, maybe worth a try. My thought has always been that someday, someone has to be the Microsoft Office of 3D. Today, a huge percentage of computers have Office because everyone uses at least one part of office. Maybe someday, most everyone will have some type of 3D program on their computer, and when that day comes, Fusion, disrupting the CAD market, could be positioned to be the defacto standard. I have no crystal ball.
    I agree. However I would say at this point Fusion is under priced while NX is over priced.

    I understand NX may not even be interested in this job shop market. However they sure acted like they are when I got my demo from the. I think you would have to admit Siemens got a little lazy on the CAM side. Correct me if I am wrong but they were play a little catch up with high speed tool paths and probing.

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