Fusion 360 Manufacturing Extension..the other shoe dropped..
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    Default Fusion 360 Manufacturing Extension..the other shoe dropped..

    So when they announced it a few months ago it was the answer to the clunkiness of F360 when doing 4th axis stuff. Some good rotary toolpaths. Also a bunch of other stuff that I didn't have a use for but looked useful if you needed it.

    At the time it was free trial so I had no clue what it would cost. Well today I logged in and the trial was over. To be able to have access to the Manufacturing Extension it is saying $750 a year. I pay $310 now so am not thrilled about this at all.

    I guess if you use all the features it provides every day it would be worth it but for me I just want access to those rotary toolpaths so doubling my CAD/CAM cost per year kind of sucks.

    Does this look worth $750 a year?
    Fusion 360 Manufacturing Extension | Fusion 360 | Autodesk

    EDIT:Turns out that is half off, it's normally $1500 a year.

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    Have you ever priced out any other cam package?


    This was autodesk goal the entire time. Get folks hooked on a very functional, cheap software, and pay wall the good stuff.

    It is still significantly cheaper then other cam packages, however.


    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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    I also have fusion 360. I bought it becuase it is compatable with camplete for 5 axis verification. Before using fusion I ran sprutcam for years. For 3 and 4 axis work I would choose sprutcam any day of the week. What I have found with fusion is that it is very dumb in the respect you can create a toolpath that will cut straight thru your part without any errors. I have told them they need to fix this but they seem to be more worried about aesthetics of the software. Not very satisfied overall, wish they would work with a cnc programmer to tell them what is wrong with the software. Anyway, try sprutcam. They have a 30 day trial, i have 3 seats of it. Probably $2500 each because I upgraded to have adaptive profiling but it is a one time charge and never expires. I still have sprut 2009. They also have good support for posting. Fusoon absolutely will not modify your post if it has bugs, I found that out the hard way. I have run my haas on both fusion and sprutcam. Sprutcam is a 100% better cleaner post. I bought fusion for a 5 axis doosan. Fusion does not have a workable post for this and will not modify one to help me out either.

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    How is Fusion for plain indexing work on the 4th? I bought it and haven't got over to the CAM side yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archer120x View Post
    How is Fusion for plain indexing work on the 4th? I bought it and haven't got over to the CAM side yet.
    With a good post it works fine, IMO. But to get a good post you have to do it yourself or have it done.

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    My Doosan and Hyundai/Kia are both Fanuc so while Fusion will not help me with a Post they have a library and there are some generics in there. They are close. Small things need to be fixed to work machine specific. There is dedicated Doosan post and it works great for 3 axis. It did not work for my new 4th axis. They also have 3/5 Doosan post but it didn't work at all. I ended up using the Inverse Time one they have and it has worked so far.

    I called Selway which is the local MasterCam vendor and the guy said all in I was looking at about $17k and I should just use Fusion for right now. Also I would still need to buy SolidWorks which was about $5k then. That plus maintenance for both also.

    Those prices would put me out of business trying to build my clients and products right now. Every time people bitch about Fusion I get it but there doesn't seem to be any alternatives that aren't vastly more expensive, or so rare you will never get help using them or by the time you buy all the stuff that comes bundled with basic Fusion are way more expensive.

    I really hate the way Autodesk does business but I can't afford to be proud right now, I just don't have the money. I heard Stefan Gotteswinter on YouTube mention some package he was using that was a one time pay thing and good but usually when I look that stuff up it doesn't have CAD and CAM and they don't work together and the workflow is across multiple programs is bad and becomes a PITA. Then I have to worry about getting screwed over by two companies.

    It's amazing with how important CAD/CAM is today that the market appears to have giant holes in as far as addressing customers. It's like the products are for big companies at $25K+ or Makers for free. A well rounded modest product that had all the basics, and today that means adaptive tool paths and 4/5th axis. I get if you have a Mill-Turn or some 9 axis machine you might want more but most everyone has a 4 axis machine VMC/4th or live tool Y lathe.

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    I hacked up the Featurecam post to get what I wanted. Maybe it won't be that bad...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxian View Post
    It's amazing with how important CAD/CAM is today that the market appears to have giant holes in as far as addressing customers. It's like the products are for big companies at $25K+ or Makers for free. A well rounded modest product that had all the basics, and today that means adaptive tool paths and 4/5th axis. I get if you have a Mill-Turn or some 9 axis machine you might want more but most everyone has a 4 axis machine VMC/4th or live tool Y lathe.
    FFS... that exists today. It is called Fusion, it costs $500 a year to do the vast majority of 3+2 and turning work. It costs $1700 if you want to play with (very good) surfacing, full 5 axis, or in-process probing tool paths.

    And people on here can't stop bitching about it.

    Bunch of guys on here seem to not understand that the reason all the low-cost software packages suck, and all the good CAD/CAM combinations cost $20,000 is because, and I know this is a hard concept to understand, software is expensive to make, and the CAD/CAM market is very god damn small.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    FFS... that exists today. It is called Fusion, it costs $500 a year to do the vast majority of 3+2 and turning work. It costs $1700 if you want to play with (very good) surfacing, full 5 axis, or in-process probing tool paths.

    And people on here can't stop bitching about it.

    Bunch of guys on here seem to not understand that the reason all the low-cost software packages suck, and all the good CAD/CAM combinations cost $20,000 is because, and I know this is a hard concept to understand, software is expensive to make, and the CAD/CAM market is very god damn small.
    Actually it would be $2000 per year. Not a big difference but it is $500 + $1500 = $2000

    I am not sure the price is out of line, however pick a price and business model and be upfront about it.

    It is their software and they can price according to their desire. But the price and packaging of Fusion has changed many time, they had multiple tiers they combined them all. Raised the price and lowered the price.

    In the beginning the extension was $125 per month with no yearly option. Many wanted a yearly option. If you need 5axis tool paths then you need them and having to pay monthly was ridiculous. At that time the only option was to purchase cloud credits in $100 blocks so you ended having to buy 2 blocks of cloud credits so you could spend 125 on software for the month and have 75 extra. Also any remainder credits expire each year. Now they offer a yearly option that is $1500, no discount from the monthly $125 I think many were expecting. You can't use cloud credits for that option so the 1000 a year some get can't be used towards purchasing a year. The monthy price now went up to $200 per month which work out to $2400. Which is a 60% price increase. So at one point they don't want to sell it to you yearly. Now the want to sell it yearly and charge a 60% premium for monthly.


    I can completely see rendering, generative design and FEA being a SaaS product. Things that are used rarely or benefit for high horsepower cloud computing. Not tool paths and probing.

    Secondly the packaging could be a bit better. If I have a 3 axis mill and want hole recognition I need to pay for full 5 axis and additive manufacturing????

    So while one can argue whether they price is a good value or not it really depends on their business, their needs and their personal preference. However the lack of consistency on ADSK part is what I think many are tried of. I am sick of hearing how new and young the software is and how they will figure it out. ADSK has been in the software game a long time. They know better than anyone what it cost to develop software.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    .... all the good CAD/CAM combinations cost $20,000 is because, and I know this is a hard concept to understand, software is expensive to make, and the CAD/CAM market is very god damn small.
    Another potential reason is, most cadcam software has reached maturity and there's not really any reason for people to spend big money 'upgrading'. So as people became less willing to plop down another $10,000 for the newer version that mostly changed the fonts and screen colors, those companies decided just making wages was not enough and sold out. Now that there are only a few suppliers, they can corner the market to keep prices artificially high.

    Surfcam and Mastercam ought to be about $2500 total. All the real work was done years ago. There should be five or ten small companies making a living selling cadcam apps, but there's not enough proooofit in it to interest those kind of people. It's an artificial market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    FFS... that exists today. It is called Fusion, it costs $500 a year to do the vast majority of 3+2 and turning work. It costs $1700 if you want to play with (very good) surfacing, full 5 axis, or in-process probing tool paths.

    And people on here can't stop bitching about it.

    Bunch of guys on here seem to not understand that the reason all the low-cost software packages suck, and all the good CAD/CAM combinations cost $20,000 is because, and I know this is a hard concept to understand, software is expensive to make, and the CAD/CAM market is very god damn small.
    Took me a bit to come to terms with this but unfortunately it is mostly true. I do believe at 20K its overpriced but then again some people feel the same about what I do. If someone questions my price I tell them they are free to try themselves. I suppose software is the same. What I do still feel is insane is some companies wanting a couple K for a old school 3 axis mill post. That is one of the things that made me shy away from Esprit. Perhaps I could have negotiated it into the package but but the fact they wanted to charge for it was alarming to me.

    At the end of the day Fusion is a lot like a Haas, it will get the job done but if someone with a high end machine comes along and wants your work they have the ability to take it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Another potential reason is, most cadcam software has reached maturity and there's not really any reason for people to spend big money 'upgrading'. So as people became less willing to plop down another $10,000 for the newer version that mostly changed the fonts and screen colors, those companies decided just making wages was not enough and sold out. Now that there are only a few suppliers, they can corner the market to keep prices artificially high.

    Surfcam and Mastercam ought to be about $2500 total. All the real work was done years ago. There should be five or ten small companies making a living selling cadcam apps, but there's not enough proooofit in it to interest those kind of people. It's an artificial market.
    Not really. Mastercam at least keeps adding features and new toolpaths*.

    Also, you can still buy Mastercam and keep it offline and never pay maintenance.

    It's toolpaths are light years ahead of Fusion. I've tried both..........

    A 3 axis Mcam seat was 9K last year. And did I mention it is waaay better than Fusion?



    *Maybe not for people in China........

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipSplitter View Post
    *Maybe not for people in China........
    Ask g-coder about that ... why would anyone use Mastercam when NX is the same price ?

    (Personally, I'm a wildfire 2 kinda guy, so don't blame me ... )

    More seriously, if you know any of the people working in these places ? They spend way more on marketing and executive salaries than they do on software development. Look up "Carol Bartz salary" and figure out how many Indian H1-B's they could have imported for that money ... but didn't. Autodick is where decent older software goes to die.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    Took me a bit to come to terms with this but unfortunately it is mostly true. I do believe at 20K its overpriced but then again some people feel the same about what I do. If someone questions my price I tell them they are free to try themselves. I suppose software is the same. What I do still feel is insane is some companies wanting a couple K for a old school 3 axis mill post. That is one of the things that made me shy away from Esprit. Perhaps I could have negotiated it into the package but but the fact they wanted to charge for it was alarming to me.
    I mean, the thing of all the griping on here is that this is a free market. Anyone on here is free to become a software developer and start writing their own CAD/CAM package and sell it for a low price, but this has been attempted many times before. The result? Every low-cost CAD/CAM entrant either fails or gets relegated to the Hobby/Niche market.

    Building a full-featured CAM package that is capable enough, reliable enough, and pleasant enough for a shop to invest in and rely upon is a monumentally expensive and time consuming effort that I think very few folks who post on these threads actually appreciate. Which goes a long way to explaining why MasterCAM/NX/Esprit/etc all cost $15k-$30k, depending on what level of CAM you purchase. When you get quotes for these packages, you find that they are all (feature for feature) priced about the same.

    The only company that has looked at the reality on the ground in this market, seen the writing on the wall, and broken through the chlorosis is Autodesk with Fusion. I defy anyone here to develop a new business plan that would result in the creation of a top-tier CAD/CAM package that would be successful without replicating what Autodesk has done with Fusion. They spent 5-7 years absolutely hemorrhaging money on development and acquisition while having a product that most everyone called "a toy." It is only in the last 2-3 years that Fusion could even start to look like something a serious business could rely on, and it still has a few years to go before a majority will take it seriously.

    Let's say by 2025 Fusion is really dialed in and we can all look at and agree that is up there with NX or SolidWorks. By that time, Autodesk will likely have invested over 15 years and the better part of $1 Billion to make that happen. The only viable business model that could make that effort a possibility is one that allows for the development of a Minimum Viable Product that can start making revenue as early as possible, and ratchets up the feature set while scaling the price accordingly... which is exactly what Autodesk has done.

    If you disagree, you're free to go write a business plan that asks for $1 Billion upfront, and where investors can start to see a return on that in a decade. Good luck!

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    It really just come across as whining when you complain about a company changing their prices/pricing packages as they do. It is still cheaper then any other option at full price and gives you all the capabilities of any other cam package, you just may have to do a little extra work on your end.

    You can't have it all.

    Or you can. Just have to anti up big time.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    The only company that has looked at the reality on the ground in this market, seen the writing on the wall, and broken through the chlorosis is Autodesk with Fusion. I defy anyone here to develop a new business plan that would result in the creation of a top-tier CAD/CAM package that would be successful
    I don't disagree with most of what you had, but would disagree and that Fusion is not Top-tier yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Let's say by 2025 Fusion is really dialed in and we can all look at and agree that is up there with NX or SolidWorks. By that time, Autodesk will likely have invested over 15 years and the better part of $1 Billion to make that happen.
    Why do you think they will get there with Fusion, when many would argue they have not gotten there yet with Inventor after 20 years? Do you think their kernel limits them in this regars?

    I think we'll be seeing the pace of change in Fusion slow down a fair amount, and it'll get to the mantra Autodesk has for so many of their products - lower functionality and cost, with higher volumes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    I don't disagree with most of what you had, but would disagree and that Fusion is not Top-tier yet.



    Why do you think they will get there with Fusion, when many would argue they have not gotten there yet with Inventor after 20 years? Do you think their kernel limits them in this regars?

    I think we'll be seeing the pace of change in Fusion slow down a fair amount, and it'll get to the mantra Autodesk has for so many of their products - lower functionality and cost, with higher volumes.
    i dont think he said its a top tier product YET.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    Why do you think they will get there with Fusion, when many would argue they have not gotten there yet with Inventor after 20 years? Do you think their kernel limits them in this regars?
    I think they will get there with Fusion because:

    - It is now profitable for Autodesk and is hitting all the prescribed targets to make the C-suite very happy. Investment in the long-term is now very secure.

    - They have only integrated 10% of the code base from PowerMill and many of the other acquisitions they made, so lots of very top-tier stuff is still on the table to bring to Fusion.

    - They have purchased or hired some of the very best talent in the small pond that is CAD/CAM software engineers.

    I cannot speak to kernel limitations, but they do (remarkably) own their own and can do with it as they please, so I don't see how it is a big limitation. I know they are quite aware of the sketcher limits and are working on it, but you know what the nice thing with Fusion is? If they fail, they can always rip that out and replace it with D-Cubed. The whole architecture is extremely modular (a huge competitive advantage they have over everyone else who is working with 30-40 years of spaghetti).

    The guys running Fusion are not idiots. The main Fusion team is right down the street from me and I've met them on a few occasions; these are folks who understand CAD/CAM very very deeply - including all the high-end software they are competing with. All the concerns I see voiced on here? It isn't like they don't know; in fact, they think about such things throughly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirAIG View Post
    It really just come across as whining when you complain about a company changing their prices/pricing packages as they do. It is still cheaper then any other option at full price and gives you all the capabilities of any other cam package, you just may have to do a little extra work on your end.

    You can't have it all.

    Or you can. Just have to anti up big time.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    If desiring consistent price, packaging and delivery of a product I plan to store my IP in and build a business with is whining then I am certainly a whiner

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxian View Post
    I heard Stefan Gotteswinter on YouTube mention some package he was using that was a one time pay thing

    Here is a video of him using Alibre for design and BobCAD-CAM for Toolpath and G-code.




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