Fusion 360 and security of patents

say you wanted to patent something that just flew in your head one morning straight out of bed. OK step one is to design the parts and make that assembly in Fusion 360. How secure is your work? I am not used to this cloud business and having to go through a network so you can run your CAD program and expecting it to be private and secure. is it really? If not I'll just have to find something simpler and less convenient.

madmachinst said:

say you wanted to patent something that just flew in your head one morning straight out of bed. OK step one is to design the parts and make that assembly in Fusion 360. How secure is your work? I am not used to this cloud business and having to go through a network so you can run your CAD program and expecting it to be private and secure. is it really? If not I'll just have to find something simpler and less convenient.

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I have a bunch of patents,

and for the stuff we have / I have to roll out , I have tens of thousands of designs / design work on paper and in CAD and CAD/CAM and FEA ~ a bit James Dyson like in design to engineering approach.

I have pretty much never rolled out of bed and gone to the CAD system,

First goto is a pad of paper / set of sketchbooks,

scribble stuff down on paper first, then create a second and third set of drawings VERY quickly.

Generally for a new (minor idea) I'll create anywhere between 12 to 25 pages of drawings, some by hand , some with drawing instruments and old school graphics techniques, graphics-markers + color coding. Plans , sections , 3/4 views and exploded views, assembly type drawings, - detailed insets and referenced pages and various relevant equations or other illustrated "Phenomena" / effects all visually integrated*. Probably over two to three hour period in a morning.

Then later break things down into more formal dimensioned drawings,

and then hit CAD. But whenever - later - as the idea or flow of ideas are already down on paper.

CAD is very explicit dimensionally and really slows you down to get the immediacy of an idea, and to work through that idea in a fluid and uninterrupted way.

A lot of old school inventors / engineers etc. tend to be pretty good draughtsman and artists in some cases.

CAD - as we know it is not a good design tool IMO. Originally CAD stood for Computer Aided Draughting not Computer Aided Design - as computers can't really design per se ~ getting closer with generative methods perhaps.

In the film industry and all the way to NASA engineering most design engineers and conceptual designers start with pencil/ ink and paper ~ it's just more fluid.

Even design engineers that can't draw , scribble stuff on paper.

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The patent process is long and drawn out and hinges on specific claims and claim language, not super likely that encrypted cloud files will be hacked unless you happen to be a target like Westinghouse etc. Or are known to have tech that is worth stealing. Even so that probably won't affect your patent status given everything you have to do to have something go to grant or have a decent stab at a priority filing. Probably other ways to hack "You" / your designs than hacking an encrypted cloud. [For example, for a couple of years I worked stuff out on a bunch of white boards and then took photos with my cell phone, then go to paper and CAD ~ but said phone being much easier to hack than encrypted files on a cloud database perhaps.].

Although OTOH AutoDesk is and plans to further data mine users to see how they use their products to make future improvements or just gain various analyses for feature use or to map out how people are really using their products in a larger organizational way. - but the way they doooo that may be more "Abstract" and statistical than pulling apart people's geometries and assemblies in a literal way. But they seem interested in peering into how people could be using their products more effectively or efficiently in a broad analytical way. So seems Fusin 360 is the "test bed" for that paradigm, lower level emergent processes that then filter up to inform future product rollouts (for Fusion) and then maybe the same paradigm will be applied to other product ecosystems.

my 3c.

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* important to remember not everything can be (easily) represented in "C.A.D." . especially for an interdisciplinary set of ideas and related phenomena and effects. It may be "CAD" models and assemblies on their own may be completely meaningless to someone else even a thief (unless they are extensively annotated and contain deeper embedded documentation). OTOH a known/ clearly identified competitor may attempt to hack something or carry out generic industrial espionage for very specific and targeted (technological or strategic) reasons.

cameraman said:

CAD is very explicit dimensionally and really slows you down to get the immediacy of an idea, and to work through that idea in a fluid and uninterrupted way.

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I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. Parametric modelling like in Solidworks can be pretty fast and free flowing, much faster and easier for me than on paper.

mhajicek said:

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. Parametric modelling like in Solidworks can be pretty fast and free flowing, much faster and easier for me than on paper.

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I'd have to disagree with that statement for ME (at least) ,

I can visualize and set down on paper more complex and fluid things faster than SW or SE or other for the initial design process. But I am a good draughtsman / have good illustrative 3d skills. Setting down an initial set of ideas and working through those ideas can (depending on what you are inventing) literally involve the integration of multidimensional ideas and phenomena that can't really be represented in a CAD system so easily and with immediacy.

Op's question pertains to invention per se. and assemblies that do something new. "Roll out of bed" to...

I'm fast at or with CAD systems.

Depends on what you are designing...

For people that can't draw or visualize in their mind's eye certain things very clearly - then YES - I would agree that parametric modelling can get you pretty far pretty quickly for some work. - And then (IME) you hit a brick wall, NX modelling tools and some from Solid Edge close in on that wall a bit, but then one starts to over-focus on driving the CAD processes rather than working through the immediacy of a fresh set of ideas. [Sometimes those first two to three hours are crucial to work that ALL through and connected and related ideas to a reasonable conclusion. ~ It's hard to explain - it's when you are "In the zone" I just found that CAD would interrupt that flow... Great for second or third iteration stuff , and sometimes when stuff is well established in CAD I'll go back to paper to shake out some different or more imaginative ideas.].

In whatever guise these are all in their individual cases what I call a "Cognitive prosthesis" to a deeper set of ideas or actualized systems. Obviously in the near final CAD/CAM execution CAD is very essential although some "Peeps" use different methods ranging from finger cam to writing their own software.


Professional conceptual designers I know, and design engineers that can't draw, - still work through stuff on paper initially,

There ARE design tools (that are digital) but more in the realm of commercial design rather than 'CAD" per se. AD seems to own a lot of those as well (now) lol.

Whatever works for you - works for you :-) ( nobody can tell you what does and does not work for you ).

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If OP rolls out of bed and does his Fusion 360 and somehow does "Patent stuff" in that instance ...

For stuff we (my little ship) are doing we don't show work in progress and the designs we are working on are unique and hence can be "Stolen" by someone's eyes with a 20 second glance in some instances; you can't un-ring a bell, so best not to put yourself or other people in that situation if you can help it [at least in our case] - again not a million miles away from how James Dyson has been doing stuff for 30 / 40 years in different application areas and capacities.

How secure is your computer? After all, it is linked to the outside world since you are using Fusion. Do you use the same computer to browse the internet and get email? If so then I wouldn't worry about using Fusion for security reasons, you have bigger risks.

Definitely paper for me and it's important to sign and date everything, ideally in a bound lab notebook. IMO, CAD won't be really great until we can do it by voice like Tony Stark did it in whatever that movie was, and the stuff just gets made automagically.

Conrad Hoffman said:

CAD won't be really great until we can do it by voice like Tony Stark did it in whatever that movie was

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Imma disagree with you on that vehemently. The way my brain works, the spoken word is like a second language; I think in 3D space. When I'm in my preferred CADCAM, when I decide I want something to happen, my hands do things, and the thing happens, all automatically, often before I consciously realize what it is I want. If it were voice activated, I'd have to think about translating what I want into words, and then take all that time to say it out loud. That would be horrible and inefficient.

Conrad Hoffman said:

Definitely paper for me and it's important to sign and date everything, ideally in a bound lab notebook. IMO, CAD won't be really great until we can do it by voice like Tony Stark did it in whatever that movie was, and the stuff just gets made automagically.

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OMG way off topic but paper doesn't measure the fit of even basic non organic 3d parts. I was asking about the security and fear that Fusion 360 will try to steal or facilitate the stealing of your idea especially if you are using the free product for the time being.

mhajicek said:

Imma disagree with you on that vehemently. The way my brain works, the spoken word is like a second language; I think in 3D space. When I'm in my preferred CADCAM, when I decide I want something to happen, my hands do things, and the thing happens, all automatically, often before I consciously realize what it is I want. If it were voice activated, I'd have to think about translating what I want into words, and then take all that time to say it out loud. That would be horrible and inefficient.

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I miss the old command line from R14, but 360 has 20X more ease in creating 3d stuff.

madmachinst said:

<snip> I was asking about the security and fear that Fusion 360 will try to steal or facilitate the stealing of your idea especially if you are using the free product for the time being.

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If there is any 'Stealing" going on I'm not sure that "Fusion 360" does that.

Doesn't that require a sentient thief or operative ?

There have been en-mass hacks of services like "Drop-Box" in the past.

A scenario where a Fusion 360 engineer starts stealthily creeping around servers (remotely) looking for promising looking assemblies to steal ?

Not 100% sure that someone could write an algorithm that would be able to hunt down promising new "Ideas" but in the context of more standard parts that pertain to specific sensitive industries then theoretically that would be possible.

Things that are of a sensitive nature / national security - probably is not going to be using FREE Fusion 360 cloud only driven and stored CAD software ?

Not really sure what level of encryption and security that Autodesk / Fusion 360 use.

I'm sure many in the industry are trying to make the case that the cloud is more secure than most 'puters or phones.

If someone really wants your design and your computer touches the web then that will be your weak point. Even if autodesk servers are hacked there are millions of files that would need to be gone thru to find yours- and then someone to decide to make it.
Your computer is much easier to hack than autodesk cloud.
Agree paper is the easiest roughing out method; fusion is about the hardest way to draw or model anything.

The original post referred to patents and a signed and dated lab notebook trumps most else. Even if somebody steals your files, and modifies them, you have proof of what you came up with and when.

DavidScott said:

How secure is your computer? After all, it is linked to the outside world since you are using Fusion. Do you use the same computer to browse the internet and get email? If so then I wouldn't worry about using Fusion for security reasons, you have bigger risks.

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Which is safer, the small safe hidden in the wall of your house which only you know about; or the safe at a national bank?

madmachinst said:

OMG way off topic but paper doesn't measure the fit of even basic non organic 3d parts. I was asking about the security and fear that Fusion 360 will try to steal or facilitate the stealing of your idea especially if you are using the free product for the time being.

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So where's the paranoia coming from?

Unless you create a folder called "patent design" and the part "patent concept 1"(etc) how's anybody who runs Fusion or the cloud going to have any idea your design is patentable and worthy of stealing.

There must be 1000's of unique designs saved to the cloud every day, you flatter yourself if you think something you create in Fusion is going to be stolen and reproduced.

If your really that worried then find a CAD system that saves locally, problem solved.

jhov said:

Which is safer, the small safe hidden in the wall of your house which only you know about; or the safe at a national bank?

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Ask the Greeks

Conrad Hoffman said:

The original post referred to patents and a signed and dated lab notebook trumps most else. Even if somebody steals your files, and modifies them, you have proof of what you came up with and when.

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I date most of what I do on paper; used "Lab note books" for years but last ten to fifteen years have also been using much larger sheets and formats of different aspect ratios but typically A2 or A3 size sometimes longer than A1. So when I hear of an oil and gas / geological /geospatial company is going under or has been consolidated I try to snap up a few plan chests. Nice to have for large document storage. + occasional large format pen-plotter printers :-) .

I've always wondered (other than for ethical reasons) why such signed and dated documents couldn't be forged - i.e. why a different date couldn't be written on the corner using the same 'pen" etc. or changes and additions made to an existing paper document ?

When I lived in the U.K. folks used to recommend "photocopying" various documents and diagrams and then mailing a number of them to yourself in large envelopes that you leave sealed so that it's postmarked. The idea being in an old school imagined scenario - court proceedings with magistrates and barristers (all wearing wigs from the late 1600s) you can open said envelopes in court so that the documents can be compared with the originals and hence a notional priority date could be validated... at least in part.

That's why an initial priority (patent) filing can be useful as it can contain a broad scope of discussion and illustration of new principals and methods (one) may be working on but the claim language etc. doesn't need to be developed or could be left blank.[As far as I remember in most territories the priority filing is not published / is sealed or more difficult to access by 3rd parties.- bit shakey on that.].

Then later fully "engineered" patent filings can be submitted (if necessary). But if you choose not to officially file at least on record with the relevant patent offices there is a sort of "Terminus post quem/ ante quem " ~ priority date for a registered and dated document that could constitute "Prior art" against someone else filing a similar patent later on.

Sometimes a patent has to be obtained in a more fully realized way so that you have a greater chance that you have the right to practice your OWN invention in the face of much larger and more powerful companies that you may have to go "toe to toe" with (like Apple or Sony for example) that may be attempting to stake out territory in a similar area you might be working in.

jhov said:

Which is safer, the small safe hidden in the wall of your house which only you know about; or the safe at a national bank?

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^^^ I assume this is sort of rhetorical,

A paper document in a plan chest is a lot harder to hack from 7000 miles away than for example my bank account.

My Bank account has been hacked and "Monies" stolen (from a distance of 6000 miles ) - that the Bank had to reimburse after a period of time (almost a month).

Sensitive IP that gets "Pinched" or lifted can't really be reimbursed.

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I'm not sure it's Autodesk's legal responsibility via the Fusion 360 portal to maintain and secure sensitive (on going IP / "Intellectual Property" ) - not sure that's an appropriate use of their system and services quite frankly.

AND if something does go wrong or is subject to ransomware on a large scale is Autodesk obliged to actually pay a hacking group - I suspect they would, but legally I'm not sure they are obliged to pay up if everyone's data has been rendered unreadable / corrupted or obstructively encrypted either temporarily or permanently. Which older versions and backups would Autodesk then access, how far back / how much work would be lost if AD didn't pay.

Which then begs the further question is Fusion 360 also the gateway for AD to in essence become a cloud service provider - i.e. that's where the long term steady income stream for them would also come from ? <just musing> It's not software or CAD software through the cloud it's anything that could be delivered in a real time way and or just more extensive "Storage" and archiving.

But OTOH (Autodesk's) A360 - service existed earlier (perhaps) - [seemingly more generalized] and the terms of service for that going back to 2013,

Autodesk - Legal Notices & Trademarks - Autodesk 360 Terms of Service (updated. 3/2013)

^^^ Kinda strongly points to the idea that you are responsible for your own sh*t. (No matter what and AD is really not legally responsible for anything.). ~ no matter what happens. Sorta common sense I guess.

You can keep anything you have opened in Fusion stored on your computer for a year, so if they get hacked, or blown up, or your internet goes down, you are still relatively good. Just make sure you set it that way.

As for responsibility, whose lawyers do you think would win that argument, theirs or yours?

cameraman said:

I'd have to disagree with that statement for ME (at least) ,

I can visualize and set down on paper more complex and fluid things faster than SW or SE or other for the initial design process. But I am a good draughtsman / have good illustrative 3d skills. Setting down an initial set of ideas and working through those ideas can (depending on what you are inventing) literally involve the integration of multidimensional ideas and phenomena that can't really be represented in a CAD system so easily and with immediacy.

Op's question pertains to invention per se. and assemblies that do something new. "Roll out of bed" to...

I'm fast at or with CAD systems.

Depends on what you are designing...

For people that can't draw or visualize in their mind's eye certain things very clearly - then YES - I would agree that parametric modelling can get you pretty far pretty quickly for some work. - And then (IME) you hit a brick wall, NX modelling tools and some from Solid Edge close in on that wall a bit, but then one starts to over-focus on driving the CAD processes rather than working through the immediacy of a fresh set of ideas. [Sometimes those first two to three hours are crucial to work that ALL through and connected and related ideas to a reasonable conclusion. ~ It's hard to explain - it's when you are "In the zone" I just found that CAD would interrupt that flow... Great for second or third iteration stuff , and sometimes when stuff is well established in CAD I'll go back to paper to shake out some different or more imaginative ideas.].

In whatever guise these are all in their individual cases what I call a "Cognitive prosthesis" to a deeper set of ideas or actualized systems. Obviously in the near final CAD/CAM execution CAD is very essential although some "Peeps" use different methods ranging from finger cam to writing their own software.


Professional conceptual designers I know, and design engineers that can't draw, - still work through stuff on paper initially,

There ARE design tools (that are digital) but more in the realm of commercial design rather than 'CAD" per se. AD seems to own a lot of those as well (now) lol.

Whatever works for you - works for you :-) ( nobody can tell you what does and does not work for you ).

________________________________________________


If OP rolls out of bed and does his Fusion 360 and somehow does "Patent stuff" in that instance ...

For stuff we (my little ship) are doing we don't show work in progress and the designs we are working on are unique and hence can be "Stolen" by someone's eyes with a 20 second glance in some instances; you can't un-ring a bell, so best not to put yourself or other people in that situation if you can help it [at least in our case] - again not a million miles away from how James Dyson has been doing stuff for 30 / 40 years in different application areas and capacities.

Click to expand...

Ideas start with pencil and paper, but very roughly. The big 3D machine in my head does most of the work, putting a lot down on paper is wasted effort once you conceptualize a design.

There is no reason to duplicate work beyond the conceptual stage. I use white boards too...but again big concepts then it's immediately to a CAD tool.

I do a lot of bottom up designing.

I think there was an ITAR thread on here that said the Fusion servers or not located in the US therefore it is not ITAR compliant. I am sure they are in some third world shithole. So basically the guy that empties the trash is paging through all your confidential designs nightly.