Geometry based VS featured based(Happy Holidays)

tmao · Dec 26, 2018

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum, I was a Mastercam only programmer for everything I got(aviation, oil&gas, mould making, tool&die, automation, automotive) till I got a new job.

The new company only use ESPRIT and made me so mad to program, every time I have to fight with those "features" even on 2D toolpath, and if you want to make any modification to feature you have to start over.

Here is my question, why they use such a stupid way to make program, it's like the program decide the toolpath, not I make the toolpath as I want.

Every CAM company when mentioned Mastercam they said it's a piece of crap, then started to bullshxt something like they bought "moduleworks company" to be their 5-axis department or other shxt.

Every CAM company tried to bite a meat from Mastercam, but why they can't just make everything easier, and for ESPRIT, you have to pay for everything, tutorial and training, they even don't want to sell you any book and only want you to go their very expensive classes.

I don't mind to learn new software, but why they can't make the software easy to use, why they can't make everything strait forward.

Please talk about your opinions about these two strategies, any friendly comments will be welcomed.

Thanks.

Volitan · Dec 26, 2018

I can't speak about geometry based vs feature based, but I can say I feel your pain going to a new job with a new software.

After being a Mastercam guy for 15 years or so I got a new job a year or so ago where they had Edgecam in that department. There were Mastercam seats in the company already in use, and they said they'd get another if I wanted it but to try the Edgecam first. I said ok and before my two weeks notice was up I got on the phone to the local Edgecam reseller, told him I was going to one of his customers and could he hook me up with a demo so I could get my feet wet before starting there. He looked up their license and gave me a demo with their features activated so I wouldn't waste time learning stuff they don't have. Great guy. He was the best to deal with.

After two weeks at home devouring any tutorial I could find and a couple months on the job, I was pretty much begging for the Mastercam seat. lol

It was just so different. The way you have to select the tools and put the parameters in from all different menus and moving a model around there's like no quick way to snap to a view (that I could find).

Anyways... I was lucky to be able to get back to what I was used to (sort of, the old job hadn't paid for maintenance so the Mastercam I got was way different then what I knew but wasn't hard to pick up), but Esprit.. From what I've heard it's the cream of the crop. Way more expensive than the others but worth it from what I've read.

People that know it love it, I've not heard anything bad about it at all. It sounds like a good opportunity to learn a really nice piece of software.

I remember the frustration though... I feel for ya.

wheelieking71 · Dec 26, 2018

I was forced to switch from Mastercam to Featurecam in 2005. I hated it. For about two weeks.
Then one day it clicked. Now, I can't stand the thought of not having Featurecam. Go figure.

goooose · Dec 26, 2018

tmao said:
Hi everyone,

Here is my question, why they use such a stupid way to make program, it's like the program decide the toolpath, not I make the toolpath as I want.

Please talk about your opinions about these two strategies, any friendly comments will be welcomed.

Thanks.

I was in the same boat as you. Mastercam for a long time and was then introduced to Esprit. I had a hard time at first but after a couple weeks there was no comparison. Feature based is the way every cam system should be done. Once you get your head into it you'll see it. If you have access to Esprits KBM, then you'll really be blown away with how much faster you can program.

When Fusion was first developing I was hoping they would see that feature based was superior and follow that path, unfortunately they stuck with the old.

I should have gone into sales with Esprit as I know I would have sold 100% of the demos I did...it is just that much faster than anything else.

tmao · Dec 26, 2018

Thanks for the reply Volitan, it's excellent to hear that your company bought you another MC seat, my department leader told me he's gonna put MC in budget next year(2019), and I promised him he don't need to worry about anything about programming any more.

I've already got the job for two months, for the two months I really feel guilty to sit on that chair and take the money, I can do a way better job if I have MC to use.

For ESPRIT, looks like they hired lots of guys to make good comments. But believe me, Mastercam can beat the shxt out of Esprit everywhere.

All the best!

tmao · Dec 26, 2018

Thanks for the comment goooose, glad we are in the same country.

Here are some thoughts I have about ESPRIT.

1. Obviously ESPRIT is using Moduleworks 5-axis function, but why they're not listed on the moduleworks' partner page? Not buying enough licenses? Or they just stop buying it and still using the old version. Or it's just a punishment for lying to customers "We end up with buying moduleworks"..

2. For 5-axis machining, most time you have to draw your own tool axis lines if you want a good toolpath, how did you do that in such a shitty CAD environment.

3. For Geometry VS Feature, for a simple 2D toolpath, why can't I just pick up a line and make a toolpath? Why I have to create a "feature" first then start make a toolpath, it's just a simple line! I really don't like the software told me here's the choices, you pick up one. I want to make the toolpath as I want, I decide the way how I'm gonna make the parts.

4. Why there is almost no diagram in ESPRIT the show ppl what the options do, it's really not user-friendly, maybe for a guy who have years experience he may know what's the difference between each option, but what about a new guy? I have to guess every option with its funny name! Even my department leader, who has years experience on ESPRIT still couldn't figure out all the meaning of each option.

5. For KBM, I believe you're talking about .psc, yes it saves some time, but what's gonna happen if you don't have a full tool library so every time you have to make a new toolpath which is a PITA, Mastercam also has similar functions without tool setup, you can just import the toolpath without tools and then you can select the tool from any library. I did lots of very complicated parts, for ESPRIT, you will spend years to make the toolpath, not saving any time.

6. Mastercam has more than 25% market share, and way more users than ESPRIT, every time when I got problem making good toolpath, I just google it and most time I can find the right answer, even when I just started my career. But for ESPRIT which has less than 5% market share, when you got problem, what can you do? Submitting the problem to the nuts who even don't know what they are talking about? Forget about it.

Sorry for my rudeness, I was outraged.

All the best to you in the new year.

tmao · Dec 26, 2018

goooose said:
I was in the same boat as you. Mastercam for a long time and was then introduced to Esprit. I had a hard time at first but after a couple weeks there was no comparison. Feature based is the way every cam system should be done. Once you get your head into it you'll see it. If you have access to Esprits KBM, then you'll really be blown away with how much faster you can program.

When Fusion was first developing I was hoping they would see that feature based was superior and follow that path, unfortunately they stuck with the old.

I should have gone into sales with Esprit as I know I would have sold 100% of the demos I did...it is just that much faster than anything else.

Thanks for the comment goooose, glad we are in the same country.

Here are some thoughts I have about ESPRIT.

1. Obviously ESPRIT is using Moduleworks 5-axis function, but why they're not listed on the moduleworks' partner page? Not buying enough licenses? Or they just stop buying it and still using the old version. Or it's just a punishment for lying to customers "We end up with buying moduleworks"..

2. For 5-axis machining, most time you have to draw your own tool axis lines if you want a good toolpath, how did you do that in such a shitty CAD environment.

3. For Geometry VS Feature, for a simple 2D toolpath, why can't I just pick up a line and make a toolpath? Why I have to create a "feature" first then start make a toolpath, it's just a simple line! I really don't like the software told me here's the choices, you pick up one. I want to make the toolpath as I want, I decide the way how I'm gonna make the parts.

4. Why there is almost no diagram in ESPRIT to show ppl what the options do, it's really not user-friendly, maybe for a guy who have years experience he may know what's the difference between each option, but what about a new guy? I have to guess every option with its funny name! Even my department leader, who has years experience on ESPRIT still couldn't figure out all the meaning of each option.

5. For KBM, I believe you're talking about .psc, yes it saves some time, but what's gonna happen if you don't have a full tool library so every time you have to make a new toolpath which is a PITA, Mastercam also has similar functions without tool setup, you can just import the toolpath without tools and then you can select the tool from any library. For very complicated parts in ESPRIT, you will spend years to make the toolpaths, no saving any time.

6. Mastercam has more than 25% market share, and way more users than ESPRIT, every time when I got problem making good toolpath, I just google it and most time I can find the right answer, even when I just started my career. But for ESPRIT which has less than 5% market share, when you got problem, what can you do? Submitting the problem to the nuts on the website who even don't know what they are talking about? Forget about it.

Sorry for my rudeness, I was outraged.

All the best to you in the new year.

SeymourDumore · Dec 26, 2018

Sounds - to me anyway - that your beef isn't really feature vs. model, rather MC vs ESPRIT.

For 2D toolpaths, I would absolutely not want anything model based, but I - just like Wheelie - use FeatureCAM.
Model to curves, curves to feature, feature to toolpath. From then on the model can go to hell, the toolpath is now yours to mangle as you see fit.

But then again, I don't know how ESPRIT works.....

wheelieking71 · Dec 26, 2018

tmao said:
Thanks for the comment goooose, glad we are in the same country.

Here are some thoughts I have about ESPRIT.

1. Obviously ESPRIT is using Moduleworks 5-axis function, but why they're not listed on the moduleworks' partner page? Not buying enough licenses? Or they just stop buying it and still using the old version. Or it's just a punishment for lying to customers "We end up with buying moduleworks"..

2. For 5-axis machining, most time you have to draw your own tool axis lines if you want a good toolpath, how did you do that in such a shitty CAD environment.

3. For Geometry VS Feature, for a simple 2D toolpath, why can't I just pick up a line and make a toolpath? Why I have to create a "feature" first then start make a toolpath, it's just a simple line! I really don't like the software told me here's the choices, you pick up one. I want to make the toolpath as I want, I decide the way how I'm gonna make the parts.

4. Why there is almost no diagram in ESPRIT the show ppl what the options do, it's really not user-friendly, maybe for a guy who have years experience he may know what's the difference between each option, but what about a new guy? I have to guess every option with its funny name! Even my department leader, who has years experience on ESPRIT still couldn't figure out all the meaning of each option.

5. For KBM, I believe you're talking about .psc, yes it saves some time, but what's gonna happen if you don't have a full tool library so every time you have to make a new toolpath which is a PITA, Mastercam also has similar functions without tool setup, you can just import the toolpath without tools and then you can select the tool from any library. I did lots of very complicated parts, for ESPRIT, you will spend years to make the toolpath, not saving any time.

6. Mastercam has more than 25% market share, and way more users than ESPRIT, every time when I got problem making good toolpath, I just google it and most time I can find the right answer, even when I just started my career. But for ESPRIT which has less than 5% market share, when you got problem, what can you do? Submitting the problem to the nuts who even don't know what they are talking about? Forget about it.

Sorry for my rudeness, I was outraged.

All the best to you in the new year.

You need to try Featurecam. Best of both worlds. And, way-way faster that Mastercam.
Too bad Autodesk is ruining Featurecam ownership.

wheelieking71 · Dec 26, 2018

SeymourDumore said:
Sounds - to me anyway - that your beef isn't really feature vs. model, rather MC vs ESPRIT.

For 2D toolpaths, I would absolutely not want anything model based, but I - just like Wheelie - use FeatureCAM.
Model to curves, curves to feature, feature to toolpath. From then on the model can go to hell, the toolpath is now yours to mangle as you see fit.

But then again, I don't know how ESPRIT works.....

I have watched a few of Peter Stanton's videos where he is programming in Esprit. Looks pretty convoluted to me.
I thought the same about Featurecam until it clicked though.
I do still struggle with more advanced 3-D stuff in Featurecam, I admit.
That can get pretty involved, and drag on forever trying to get exactly what you are after.

plutoniumsalmon · Dec 26, 2018

Hello.
Not defending esprit, I do use it for a y lathe, I dont mind features as once defined you can just add operations to them. Also they are editable. Would the equivalent in Mastercam not be copying and pasting the toolpath and then changing the parameters. I almost feel like they both do the same thing but come at it from different angles.

I do not like the cad function in esprit but hardly ever use it. And yes I dont like the plane selection as well but it can be learned. Click a face make new plane then click new and name it. Backwards as usual but workable.

tmao · Dec 26, 2018

SeymourDumore said:
Sounds - to me anyway - that your beef isn't really feature vs. model, rather MC vs ESPRIT.

For 2D toolpaths, I would absolutely not want anything model based, but I - just like Wheelie - use FeatureCAM.
Model to curves, curves to feature, feature to toolpath. From then on the model can go to hell, the toolpath is now yours to mangle as you see fit.

But then again, I don't know how ESPRIT works.....

Hi SeymourDumore, it's not model VS feature, it's geometry VS feature. In Mastercam, it's Model to curves, then curves to toolpaths directly, also, in Mastercam, curves are treated as lines, easy to use, also editable. I really don't know why need an extra "FEATURE" step..

tmao · Dec 26, 2018

plutoniumsalmon said:
Hello.
Not defending esprit, I do use it for a y lathe, I dont mind features as once defined you can just add operations to them. Also they are editable. Would the equivalent in Mastercam not be copying and pasting the toolpath and then changing the parameters. I almost feel like they both do the same thing but come at it from different angles.

I do not like the cad function in esprit but hardly ever use it. And yes I dont like the plane selection as well but it can be learned. Click a face make new plane then click new and name it. Backwards as usual but workable.

Hi plutoniumsalmon,
For lathe work I think it's OK to use ESPRIT, I can tolerate that "feature" function, lathe is simple programming, but for complicated milling part, ESPRIT just screws me up.. For Milling most time I have to modify the geometry to get the ideal toolpath, the ESPRIT's weak CAD kills me..

tmao · Dec 26, 2018

wheelieking71 said:
You need to try Featurecam. Best of both worlds. And, way-way faster that Mastercam.
Too bad Autodesk is ruining Featurecam ownership.

Hi wheelieking71,

Thanks for the suggestion, I don't need it to be super ultra extreme fast, I just want to make a toolpath follow my mind. Every time before I start to make a toolpath, I already have a toolpath image in my head, what I do is just to make it true.

wheelieking71 · Dec 26, 2018

Well, its no secret Mastercam gives the greatest control over the toolpath.
So, you probably wont like any of the others then anyway.
Featurecam is really good. But, there are a few things it simply will not do.
And, a few others that will frustrate the hell out of you trying to figure out.
And, the tool-crib is absolutely horrible.
But, for 2.5D and simple 3D, its real hard to beat.

goooose · Dec 27, 2018

tmao said:
1. Obviously ESPRIT is using Moduleworks 5-axis function, but why they're not listed on the moduleworks' partner page? Not buying enough licenses? Or they just stop buying it and still using the old version. Or it's just a punishment for lying to customers "We end up with buying moduleworks"..

Esprit does not use ModuleWorks. They are one of the few who don't. And thats a good thing, they can actually support issues that come up since they create everything in their software.

tmao said:
2. For 5-axis machining, most time you have to draw your own tool axis lines if you want a good toolpath, how did you do that in such a shitty CAD environment.

Yes, I'll agree there. The CAD side of Esprit is not great, but you can do everything you need to. It does not lack any functionality just takes some getting used to.

tmao said:
3. For Geometry VS Feature, for a simple 2D toolpath, why can't I just pick up a line and make a toolpath? Why I have to create a "feature" first then start make a toolpath, it's just a simple line! I really don't like the software told me here's the choices, you pick up one. I want to make the toolpath as I want, I decide the way how I'm gonna make the parts.

For a simple 2D line toolpath there will be no extra work in creating the feature. Creating a feature vs chaining geometry is the same amount of work, apply a toolpath to either, again is the same amount of work. The advantage Esprit has here is that the toolpath can get information from the feature whereas Mastercam cannot....well Mastercam can get the Z level of the chain but nowhere close to the data a feature contains.

tmao said:
4. Why there is almost no diagram in ESPRIT to show ppl what the options do, it's really not user-friendly, maybe for a guy who have years experience he may know what's the difference between each option, but what about a new guy? I have to guess every option with its funny name! Even my department leader, who has years experience on ESPRIT still couldn't figure out all the meaning of each option.

The help files in the software are very good. Give them a look. If you're still stuck, hit up your reseller. If you're still stuck, hit up the main tech support line. They reply within 24hrs.

tmao said:
5. For KBM, I believe you're talking about .psc, yes it saves some time, but what's gonna happen if you don't have a full tool library so every time you have to make a new toolpath which is a PITA, Mastercam also has similar functions without tool setup, you can just import the toolpath without tools and then you can select the tool from any library. For very complicated parts in ESPRIT, you will spend years to make the toolpaths, no saving any time.

I'm not sure you fully understand the KBM system in Esprit. Might be best to hit up your reseller for some info or application specific training. Once you are on track with KBM, it's just one thing at a time. Everyday automate one more thing. Today, a speed and feed for a specific cut, tomorrow a tapping depth in a blind hole...before you know it you'll have massive amounts of intelligent automation.

tmao said:
6. Mastercam has more than 25% market share, and way more users than ESPRIT, every time when I got problem making good toolpath, I just google it and most time I can find the right answer, even when I just started my career. But for ESPRIT which has less than 5% market share, when you got problem, what can you do? Submitting the problem to the nuts on the website who even don't know what they are talking about? Forget about it.

I'll agree again, it's tough finding 'free' content on Esprit since the user base is smaller than Mastercam or Fusion. There are places to find this content though. Their forum on the Esprit website, usergroups on facebook, techs support requests, etc etc, if you want to buy something, the camwizard has videos which are great or you could just fly me to the Yukon to help you out

All I would say is give Esprit a chance. It may take you a month but I assure you it will be worth it. And no I'm not paid by Esprit to say good things about them. I've said good things about many CAM softwares, I've said bad things about many CAM softwares...my bank account has not received any benefits from either of these types of comments.

SeymourDumore · Dec 27, 2018

wheelieking71 said:
I do still struggle with more advanced 3-D stuff in Featurecam, I admit.
That can get pretty involved, and drag on forever trying to get exactly what you are after.

Yupp, that can get pretty darn involved, and FC ( now ADSK ) isn't making it easier!

I understand that Delcam Powermill was an awesome 3D CAM tool.
I also understand that FeatureCAM inherited more and more of Delcam's Powermill tools as time went by.

Unfortunately, ADSK isn't making it easy for their not PowerMill users to get acquainted to the ins and outs.

Wheelie
Yes, I also just plunked down the "maintenance" for FC, but I do hope that sometime ADSK will put out some usable training videos for 3D toolpaths.
2D, I'm more than OK with.
3D OTOH, I'd almost rather decipher and convert a FANUC manual to real English instead!!!

Hazzert · Dec 27, 2018

Curious how feature based software deals with this...

Most of the parts I do have unilaterally toleranced features ie an island on top of a boss with a +1mm -0 from two edges. I will offset the geometry in Gibbs to change it to a bilateral +/- .5mm. Stacking unilateral Z offsets are common as well but I imagine those are delt with easily enough.

tmao · Dec 27, 2018

Hi goooose, Thanks for the reply again.

1. Can you tell me which 5-axis toolpath company they bought and merge their function into ESPRIT? Or it's just a lie from salesmen. ES & MW look pretty similar, for example composite in ES & morph in MW.

2. Sorry I don't agree with "you can do everything you need to", It does lack many functionalities compare to MC. Also for a simple curve you have to smash it first then apporx. it again and then you can start to work on it, I really don't know why they make it so complicated.

3. It does require more work to make toolpath, everytime I got some idea about toolpath, I can't do any extra step to make it, extra step is simply frustrating. For Z value, in Mastercam it's even easier, I don't need to go feature properties to define the value, I just need to input the number, that's it.

4. Based on my experience, I barely use MC's help file, because almost everything has a picture to show you what's the option doing for the toolpath, also ES' help file is very confusing too, I tried the help file, but not helpful at all, only more confused.

5. Still don't understand, Maybe you're talking about something like VBA, it's like find out some value from stock definition or from the model, mostly it works for lathe, but sorry, I'm more on milling side, and also, MC is more convenient on lathe programming, they even has Sandvik prime turning option

6. Sorry I have seen Camwizard's videos from the company I'm working for, I tried it once, but couldn't tolerate "blablabla" for half an hour and spend 5 minutes to make the toolpath. Many Mastercam video tutorials do the same thing, so I never bought any of them. I used to buy some MC books from IHS, they are very straight forward. The ES' website help team is almost useless, everytime I stuck on somewhere and submit the question to them they just told me to do it another way, which I really hate, I want to make the toolpath as I want, not "another way".

7. ES just had their high speed machining "profit milling" and looks very similar to "Votex milling" from powermill, lots of waste toolpath involved, MC has their "dynamic" since 2010, why don't ES just give up on milling and focus on lathe?

Regards.

tmao · Dec 27, 2018

Hazzert said:
Curious how feature based software deals with this...

Most of the parts I do have unilaterally toleranced features ie an island on top of a boss with a +1mm -0 from two edges. I will offset the geometry in Gibbs to change it to a bilateral +/- .5mm. Stacking unilateral Z offsets are common as well but I imagine those are delt with easily enough.

They will tell you draw/smash the geometry first then offset it then feature it then start to make toolpath, if you realize something not right, start over again..

Geometry based VS featured based(Happy Holidays)

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