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  1. #21
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    PDF prints, especially those not made from a model, often contain impossible geometry once tolerances are accounted for. That's why every part should be modeled at the midpoint of tolerance. I've also seen some where the dimensions were edited rather than the model, which of course resulted in impossible geometry. If you program from a vectorization of one of those you could be inches off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goooose View Post
    Making a 2.5D cam program IS easy. Making one that cuts correctly and efficiently is where the tricky part comes in. I've seen first hand an experiment that was taking an engineering student and having him program parts because...well, machining is easy and engineers as soooo smart. It ended exactly the way you would expect
    The guy is looking for a workflow. I don't get the impression that he expects this all to be easy, but he just needs to know the direction to take. This place obviously knows how machining works because they have a room full of 3 axis mills they seem to be making enough profit off of to have a room full of mills. If they are already banging out parts that were manually programmed, I'm guessing there is an old codger around who could knock some sense into him about feeds and speeds.

    I could be reading this totally wrong, but this isn't a guy with an eBay router kit. He might not be a machinist, but he also isn't playing this as a home gamer. None of this stuff isn't straightforward with the resources it sounds like they have on-hand.

    I would still be slightly weary of the pdf conversion as well. If, for whatever reason, the pdf contains an image of the part drawing and you try to vector that you will get massive inaccuracies in those lines, to the point where your lines will probably vary by more than your machining tolerance. Unlikely, sure, but possible. And who wants to run 10k worth of parts and then find out their pdf wasn't clean enough.
    I agree that the big variable here is that PDF geometry is total shit. Hence why I pointed to at least one tool (albeit a somewhat expensive one) that is capable of taking in super crappy PDFs converted into DWG/DXF and doing some pretty magical tricks on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    This place obviously knows how machining works because they have a room full of 3 axis mills they seem to be making enough profit off of to have a room full of mills. If they are already banging out parts that were manually programmed, I'm guessing there is an old codger around who could knock some sense into him about feeds and speeds.
    Would you agree then that the old codger (probably the guy doing the fingercam) should be the one implementing CAM, not the co-op student whos CAM experience is creating one program in BobCad? At the very least the old guy has the balls to tell the boss he's an idiot for thinking all you have to do is drop a pdf into some program and poooof! G-code!

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    Quote Originally Posted by goooose View Post
    Would you agree then that the old codger (probably the guy doing the fingercam) should be the one implementing CAM, not the co-op student whos CAM experience is creating one program in BobCad? At the very least the old guy has the balls to tell the boss he's an idiot for thinking all you have to do is drop a pdf into some program and poooof! G-code!
    The CAM side of this is one component. He needs to get a process to turn PDFs into reliable 2d data that a CAD system can take in. Then there is going to be some massaging once it is in CAD space, and probably a simple 3D conversion. Machining knowledge only comes into play at the end of this rigamarole.

    And for god sakes Goose - this shop is running FingerCAM and 2.5 axis machines - it is obvious they aren't making inconel Space X fuel pump impellers. I'm guessing this is straightforward machining stuff. In Fusion, he could have one of the old codgers look over his shoulder and pick the right tool, feeds, speeds and engagement recipe for the most common features. Then any idiot can program 70-80% of these parts with their eyes closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    The CAM side of this is one component. He needs to get a process to turn PDFs into reliable 2d data that a CAD system can take in. Then there is going to be some massaging once it is in CAD space, and probably a simple 3D conversion. Machining knowledge only comes into play at the end of this rigamarole.

    And for god sakes Goose - this shop is running FingerCAM and 2.5 axis machines - it is obvious they aren't making inconel Space X fuel pump impellers. I'm guessing this is straightforward machining stuff. In Fusion, he could have one of the old codgers look over his shoulder and pick the right tool, feeds, speeds and engagement recipe for the most common features. Then any idiot can program 70-80% of these parts with their eyes closed.
    Too damn many steps, with to much risk of bad info. Just set down with the print, and CAM, and draw the dang part.
    Of course, I am spoiled with the best (fastest) print-to-part CAM there is..........(too bad it is about to get squashed)

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Then any idiot can program 70-80% of these parts with their eyes closed.
    You underestimate the amount of damage these idiots can do with cam software. I've seen 1/4-20 holes pre-drilled 1/4", plunging into material when a small lead in would have plunged in air, reaming pfft whats that, the drill is the right size so why do it twice? The list of things to fuck up is endless. Seasoned guys make mistakes, idiots don't know they've even made one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goooose View Post
    OPs expectation.....
    And why not?
    My car can parallel park itself on a crowded street, my computer knows a insane amount of things about my searches.
    Yet, art to part is elusive with all kinds of "patchie" steps in between.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by goooose View Post
    You underestimate the amount of damage these idiots can do with cam software. I've seen 1/4-20 holes pre-drilled 1/4", plunging into material when a small lead in would have plunged in air, reaming pfft whats that, the drill is the right size so why do it twice? The list of things to fuck up is endless. Seasoned guys make mistakes, idiots don't know they've even made one.
    Well, I guess we should all just pack up shop and never take on any sort of challenge. Let the professionals handle it all. You might make a mistake for christ sakes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Well, I guess we should all just pack up shop and never take on any sort of challenge. Let the professionals handle it all. You might make a mistake for christ sakes!
    Serious question: why does the OP need a solid? And, how will he benefit from it in his described situation?
    Or maybe more specifically: why does he need CAD? Is it because that is his background?

    The way I see it: he needs to post code, from prints, period. How can CAD come in to play, that will not cost him time?

    Like I said, I am being serious. I know MasterCAM kinda well, and FeatureCAM really well. I am NOT a CAD guy. I know very little about it other than:
    it wont make code, it adds a step.

    I bet:
    By the time you convert a PDF, create a solid, import it in to CAM, and manipulate whatever you need to manipulate of said solid in CAM, to actually post code?
    I could draw and program two parts.

    Your no dummy. That is obvious. And, I am always down to be schooled. So, what am I missing here? Where/why does CAD come in to play?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Serious question: why does the OP need a solid? And, how will he benefit from it in his described situation?
    Or maybe more specifically: why does he need CAD? Is it because that is his background?

    The way I see it: he needs to post code, from prints, period. How can CAD come in to play, that will not cost him time?

    Like I said, I am being serious. I know MasterCAM kinda well, and FeatureCAM really well. I am NOT a CAD guy. I know very little about it other than:
    it wont make code, it adds a step.

    I bet:
    By the time you convert a PDF, create a solid, import it in to CAM, and manipulate whatever you need to manipulate of said solid in CAM, to actually post code?
    I could draw and program two parts.

    Your no dummy. That is obvious. And, I am always down to be schooled. So, what am I missing here? Where/why does CAD come in to play?
    This gets back to my argument that I want a model provided by the customer because if there is a mistake I want it to be theirs not mine. One of our biggest customers ordered the wrong rev for 30 parts and it was a $15k mistake and the difference was only a couple mm of a single hole position. You know what they did? Said oops and cut a PO for the correct rev. If I’d made that mistake I’d be talking to management.

    Never mind that a lot of CAM systems are terrible CAD systems sometimes it is just easier to hop into solidworks and draw something up parametrically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzert View Post
    This gets back to my argument that I want a model provided by the customer because if there is a mistake I want it to be theirs not mine. One of our biggest customers ordered the wrong rev for 30 parts and it was a $15k mistake and the difference was only a couple mm of a single hole position. You know what they did? Said oops and cut a PO for the correct rev. If I’d made that mistake I’d be talking to management.

    Never mind that a lot of CAM systems are terrible CAD systems sometimes it is just easier to hop into solidworks and draw something up parametrically.
    I am sorry, but, I don't know one single seriously qualified CNC machinist that goes off a model rather than a print. (no offense!)
    Disclaimer/caveat: If both are available. If all you get is a model? Yea, of course its on them! (I am in that boat! 99% of my work is from models, with no print).

    But, "real" shops? Print rules ALL. There is no such beast that I know of that is a toleranced solid model.

    The OP already said he has PDF's. I am going out on a limb and assuming they are prints. Print always rules.

    And, if you have a print, for 2.5D stuff? there really is no need for CAD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I am sorry, but, I don't know one single seriously qualified CNC machinist that goes off a model rather than a print. (no offense!)
    Disclaimer/caveat: If both are available. If all you get is a model? Yea, of course its on them! (I am in that boat! 99% of my work is from models, with no print).

    But, "real" shops? Print rules ALL. There is no such beast that I know of that is a toleranced solid model.

    The OP already said he has PDF's. I am going out on a limb and assuming they are prints. Print always rules.

    And, if you have a print, for 2.5D stuff? there really is no need for CAD.
    Gotta agree in my world Prints/PDFS OVERRULE solid files. solids I get sent every once in a while ARE for Reference ONLY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    And why not?
    My car can parallel park itself on a crowded street, my computer knows a insane amount of things about my searches.
    Yet, art to part is elusive with all kinds of "patchie" steps in between.
    Bob
    The days of the Star Trek Replicator are still a long ways off.

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    Where did I say that the solid rules all? If I program a part and it’s a unilateral tolerance of course the geometry or toolpath is adjusted to place it in the middle etc based on the print. If you are talking a square plate with a couple drilled holes in it sure and it tickles your fancy to draw it in MasterCAM go for it, I don’t know about your work; but our 2.5D-3d parts can be 16 pages long. I am not sitting down to draw a model or geometry for something like that. This might gets gasps of indignation but we also don’t check every dimension on the model against the drawing


    Also you might want to take a look at MBD cad models. It is perfectly reasonable in some circles to recieve a toleranced solid model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzert View Post
    Where did I say that the solid rules all? If I program a part and it’s a unilateral tolerance of course the geometry or toolpath is adjusted to place it in the middle etc based on the print. If you are talking a square plate with a couple drilled holes in it sure and it tickles your fancy to draw it in MasterCAM go for it, I don’t know about your work; but our 2.5D-3d parts can be 16 pages long. I am not sitting down to draw a model or geometry for something like that. This might gets gasps of indignation but we also don’t check every dimension on the model against the drawing


    Also you might want to take a look at MBD cad models. It is perfectly reasonable in some circles to recieve a toleranced solid model.
    Basically, right here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzert View Post
    This gets back to my argument that I want a model provided by the customer because if there is a mistake I want it to be theirs not mine. One of our biggest customers ordered the wrong rev for 30 parts and it was a $15k mistake and the difference was only a couple mm of a single hole position. You know what they did? Said oops and cut a PO for the correct rev. If I’d made that mistake I’d be talking to management.

    Never mind that a lot of CAM systems are terrible CAD systems sometimes it is just easier to hop into solidworks and draw something up parametrically.

    I don't know squat compared to some guys in here. But, I have never seen anybody reference the solid vs. the print, when both were available.
    You can bet your ass the guy at the CMM is looking at the print, not the solid.

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    Considering that I already have the drawing because I’m making the customers model or geometry for them it stands to reason I’d want a solid not the drawing again eh?

    It really comes down to the customers you deal with I’ve dealt with homeshop guys who have properly reved drawings and multimillion dollar corporations who make redline drawings with whiteout, a red pen and a fax machine and the only existence of that official drawing is in an email chain 6 months old.

    The guy at the CMM may be looking at the print but he (and we) are programming it off a solid for the most part nowadays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Machining knowledge only comes into play at the end of this rigamarole.

    In Fusion, he could have ... program 70-80% of these parts with their eyes closed.

    Oh Boy! If someone 22 years ago told me that!
    I could be .. well, perhaps, even a presidential candidate! Or even more perhaps!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    And why not?
    Because PostScript is an interesting language that you can do all kinds of strange stuff with, but it was never intended to be accurate. Not in a machining sense, anyway. It's meant for printers - sizing to fit a page, rotating, drawing text along a line, good graphical stuff but not machining-accurate.

    If it was good for that we'd be using Illustrator to draw parts instead of Pro/E

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzert View Post
    Considering that I already have the drawing because I’m making the customers model or geometry for them it stands to reason I’d want a solid not the drawing again eh?

    It really comes down to the customers you deal with I’ve dealt with homeshop guys who have properly reved drawings and multimillion dollar corporations who make redline drawings with whiteout, a red pen and a fax machine and the only existence of that official drawing is in an email chain 6 months old.

    The guy at the CMM may be looking at the print but he (and we) are programming it off a solid for the most part nowadays.
    I agree with this 100% FROM MY EXPERIENCE.

    One thing, I have seen lots of prints over the years that are marked something to the effect "reference database (soildworks file, ProE file, etc) for features not dimensioned". Also, there was a few years back a push, from what I was seeing, for "limited dimension drawings" so the engineer or draftsman did not have to spend (waste) the time to dimension every single feature. I don't know how others work, but at my current job, they build the models then use the models to create a print from (so the model is driving the dimensions). Yes the model does not convey +0/-.001, but 99% of the time the model is at the middle of the tolerance. And one last thing (in case I implied something different) I do use the print when I am programming from a solid model, but I am not verifying every little detail. So far that has not caused me any trouble thru jobshops, production, and now making our own product. YMMV.

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    Well, times they are a changing then. I was always taught to always go off the print, never the solid.
    I am a few years removed from "real" work now. So, I guess I don't know WTF I am talking about anymore.

    But, that doesn't change my stance on the subject of this thread.


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